Career Crossroads: Exploring the Possibilities With Kate Davis

Have you been leaning into making a career shift, but not sure what is right for you? Today’s guest shares a glimpse of possibilities you may not have considered and why you need to make the leap!

In this episode, Ali and JoDee sit down with Kate Davis, a veteran educator of over 15 years. Together they’ll discuss Kate’s shift from teacher to librarian, the life of an educator teaching abroad, and the large variety of career possibilities as librarian.

You’ll hear more about:

• Challenges Kate faced when coming back to the U.S. as an educator
• Why teachers make great librarians 
• The evolving role of librarians in modern communities
• How to get started in a field you might be interested in (and why you might not need a degree to do it!)
• Career advice for burnt-out teachers and those seeking change

Connect with Kate:
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Teacher Shift LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/teacher-shift
Ali’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alisimon/
JoDee’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodeescissors/

Website
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/

Episode Transcriptions
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/blog

Transcript

Ali  0:06  
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids kids, but sometimes career goals shift, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible, questioning, who am I, if I'm not a teacher? I'm your host, Ali Simon.

JoDee  0:29  
And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

Ali  0:32  
And this is Teacher Shift.

JoDee  0:43  
Career exploration is like dipping your toes into a new adventure, offering a glimpse of possibilities you might not have considered. Today, our guest shares why you owe it to yourself to take the leap into something new.

Ali  0:57  
Today, our guest is Kate Davis. Kate is a dedicated educator with over 15 years of experience working in schools and libraries across the US and abroad. Welcome to the podcast, Kate. 

Kate  1:10  
Hi. Thanks for having me.

Ali  1:12  
Well, it's really great to have you on the show. And as I was saying in our pre call, I think you're the first guest that we've had that's taught abroad, and I know that you spent several years teaching abroad. So could you start us off by maybe sharing your most memorable experiences teaching English in the UAE and South Korea, and maybe there's another country in there, and how those roles really shaped your approach to education? 

Kate  1:36  
Yeah, I mean, each shaped me in a different way. So I started in South Korea teaching English, and that was kind of my first foot in teaching. Then I decided that I really wanted to be like a school teacher instead of an English teacher. So I went to the UAE and I taught third grade, and I didn't need a degree there. So that's where I decided I wanted to go back home and get my degree. That's also where I kind of fell out of love with being in the classroom. So I shifted to the libraries. Then I went to Nigeria as a school librarian until COVID hit, and then I came back to the US. But what I think I loved about being abroad was the connection to the families, especially the local families was really deep. Everyone was really proud of their country, and wanted to invite me over for dinner and, you know, show me the sites and things. So I think there was a more, a stronger community in general, but especially through teaching when I was abroad.

JoDee  2:38  
So I know we haven't had a guest that's taught abroad, but I have. So I one summer, went and taught English in Italy to I would say maybe they were like, first, second, third graders. And something I remember were how involved the families were, because I was in a really, really small town. And, you know, like, parents would come, like, eat lunch with us. And soccer is, like, such a huge thing. So there was always like, an hour of dedicated play to soccer, but they would come and, like, eat lunch with us. It was really beautiful. And a lot of them owned small businesses in the little town I was in. And so, like, even after school, like, I would go eat dinner, and there's, like, one of my students, and there's the family, like, like, they're all there. Everywhere you go. And my host family had the gelato and coffee shop, like the only one in town. So everyone came there. It was very spoiled. But in the US, I taught English language learners and also Spanish immersion. And so something that I also noticed working with immigrant families was how it was very familial. So there would be families that would invite me to their home for dinner, who would say, Hey, can you come teach my my grandmother English? So even though a very short time of my career was spent abroad, working with immigrant and migrant families kind of taught me a lot about how much appreciation they have for teachers and education. And I really that was a really, really warming experience for me.

Kate  4:17  
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of respect for teachers, I think in other countries. 

JoDee  4:21  
Yeah, so when you came back, you went into, or you joined Teach for America. So is that accurate the timeline there? 

Kate  4:30  
When I came back from the UAE. So that's where I was, like, I want to get my Master's in teaching and education. And at that point, I thought that was a good route to go. I will say, after one year of Teach For America, I didn't agree with its model, and left. I didn't want to finish the program, and that's when I went into library school instead of... I still have a Masters of Education, but with a library focus instead of classroom. 

JoDee  4:57  
Yeah. How was that different for you abroad versus Teach For America from a teacher perspective?

Kate  5:04  
Well, my experience was kind of lonely. I knew at that point certain things that I wanted when I went into an American classroom. So I didn't want to be in a charter school. I wanted to be in a public school. I knew I wanted to be in elementary classroom. Teach For America was really pushing me to be in like, a middle school math class. And I was like, that's not something I want to commit my life to, or special education. And it was all really last minute. So I was like, I don't feel prepared to teach special education. I've never done it before, and I didn't want to do a disservice to the students by just taking any job. So I ended up finding my own job in a public school, and then I didn't have that Teach For America community that you have that month, that you learn how to be a teacher in a month. And so, you know, I think being so lonely and isolated, just the whole situation is different in the US. And I was just like, I don't want to be a part of any of this anymore. 

JoDee  6:08  
Yeah, we notice a lot of the teachers that are kind of contemplating a transition, or in the thick of it right now, we noticed that they struggle with some really intense mental health, physical health issues, and it can become very debilitating. They don't really know where to start, because when you're teaching, you're just really trying to keep your head above water and taking care of yourself is a second thought, you know. So did you ever experience any of those challenges with your mental or physical health as you were in the profession?

Kate  6:46  
Absolutely, my last year in the classroom, I broke up with my partner of the time. I had a lot of health issues. At one point I was talking to someone, I was like, I'm smelling burnt toast. They're like, I think you're having a stroke. You should go to the hospital. And luckily, it wasn't. But I think those were the things that were happening where I realized this was not healthy in any way. And because I was Teach For America, I had folks from Teach For America coming into my classroom and telling me how to teach one way. Then I'd have, like, the public school first year teacher check ins, and they would say something else, and then I had signed up for a no nonsense nurturing course to help me be better with classroom management. And then they would tell me...and it was just, I couldn't make anyone happy. I didn't have the support of the families that I was especially used to after being abroad, because they set a very high standard of support and community. And I was, you know, I felt like I was showing up every day fighting with parents to help their children. You know, one student had been writing mean notes to another student, so I had to call in her mom, and she's just like, that's not my daughter. She would neve.r I'm like, this is her handwriting. I know all of these kids handwriting, and do you think I want to be here at seven o'clock on a Tuesday to fight with you about your daughter like? That I don't like your eight year old so much that I'm trying to, like, you know, set her up. It was just that moment. I didn't say any of that, obviously, to the parent, but I was thinking that I'm just, you know, what am I doing here? And I think those were the moments that I realized I had to leave the classroom. There's a kind of an onboarding checklist where you asked, What was the main reason that you left? And I was like all of them, you know, there was not respect. There was not support. I chose mental health because that encompassed everything. But it's, it's really tough to be a teacher right now, and, well, I'll say I certainly joined because I wanted to do good and support education and support students and support, you know, the communities that I was in through education. And I just felt like I wasn't accomplishing any of that. And I felt like, Yeah, I had to fight to do good. And you know, then what good am I really doing here, I guess? And that was, yeah, the beginning of the end for me.

Ali  9:10  
Well, and I think too, from most of the people that I've met who've done that specific program, like, that's their first taste of education. And so they don't come in with the different perspectives that you had of what education could look like, and so they're probably still drowning, but they don't know that it doesn't have to be that way, right? Like, it doesn't have to be that way. I've taught in a variety of schools and different states, and it really runs the gamut. You know, you can have a lot of support. You cannot have a lot of support, and I think you knew what was best for you personally, and that wasn't it at the moment, is what I'm hearing through your story, and also knowing a little bit about the background. But what you decided to do, instead of staying in the classroom, still impacts the lives of young people and adults, because you went from a shift from teaching and to being a librarian. And so we're wondering, you know, how do you view the librarian's role in supporting education, and what was that shift like for you?

Kate  10:11  
Absolutely, it was a pretty natural shift for me. So as a third grade teacher, I taught a lot of different subjects. And as I reflected on my abilities as a teacher, I felt I was very strong in the reading and verbal areas, more than math and such. I kind of leaned into that. And I also recognized I wanted to be a librarian when I was a kid, but everyone kind of was like, no, just be a teacher, and I listened to them. So I think it was soul searching on one level of you know, this is where I've always wanted to be. And the opportunity for me to teach, or, sorry, not teach, but work in the public library for my first job was because I was going to the library so often to participate in the programming they had that they were like, You should just work here. And I was like, Yeah, I should just work here. So that was the light bulb moment, but it was a natural shift for me, because in the library, I get to focus on the parts of the classroom that I really loved without the pressure of, you know, you have to do Fauntis and Pinel or whatever it is. And, you know, there's a lot of strategies that I didn't agree with. And, you know, every teacher knows their students in their classroom. No two are the same. Even in the same school, your third grade class last year is going to be drastically different than the next year. So the cookie cutter approach that I had been, you know, introduced to in the US, I didn't have to deal with that in the library. I had a lot of freedom. So for me, it was literally I ended my job in the public school system in June, and I started in the library the end of June. So I had it all lined up ready to go. 

JoDee  11:56  
I've been helping volunteer in the library at my daughter's school, and I'm learning a lot about the job of a librarian. I mean, obviously, like, this is in her school system, but how much it's changed in terms of, like, the curriculum that librarians have, and how book banning and technology, and how we have to, like, talk about all of these things. And so when I'm in there, just, I'm just like, putting books on a shelf. Like, I don't have a big, big volunteer job, but I'm in there learning so much from her librarian about not just reading, like, you know, getting kids inspired about stories or reading books, but the role of technology, the responsibility that we have about, you know, advocating for books, and I have a great appreciation for your role.

Kate  12:48  
Thank you. Yeah, and that's a big thing that so when I went to a school as a school librarian, I got a lot of pushback because I wasn't, you know, making the kids read the books that were on their book level and kind of continuing what was happening in the classroom. I feel like the school library, in any library, is where the kids set goals. Like, what's the book you want to read? Because if a child is excited about the material, they'll figure it out. They'll take it to their parents or their older sister or brother, you know, they'll they'll figure it out. And that excitement is going to push them to learn and do more. But then now it's also about information literacy. So when you talk about technology, it's also, you know, how do you check your sources and make sure you're not spreading or trusting an unreputable source. Like those are the big things that kind of scare me about society right now, and those are the things that I think libraries are going to really have to support, beyond just books, because, I mean, and of course, I love books, but libraries are places of learning. So all of those things of learning, of, you know, thinking, does that sound like it's plausible, let me go check with trusted resources. That's, you know, I think the future of the libraries is the whole, you know, everything: books, internet. A lot of things are actually coming to the public libraries now, like social services. We have a social worker now, because a lot of you know, our society's issues are being funneled to the library. Like, oh, some of our patrons are in a homeless shelter, and then they have to leave during the day. Well they come to the library to stay warm or stay cool. Or if someone's experiencing a mental health episode and they don't have a support system to check in on them, they find themselves at the library because, you know, hopefully they feel safe there. I think that's why, at least in my system, I know we have a lot of folks that end up at the library. And you know, that is not part of library school. So I feel like it's becoming a bigger societal institution, and it's one of the last free third spaces when you're not at work or home or school or home. And so we're really trying to fight to keep that space focused on, you know, education, information, support and safety. There's so much happening in a library. So it's great that people get to see the insight, because everyone assumes it's sitting and reading and shushing. I always have a loud library because it's like, if you're talking, you're learning. You're learning from your peers, or you're asking questions. It's all education.

JoDee  15:29  
Yeah, I recently had a meeting with one of the public library programs in New Orleans, and something that I love about what they do is they provide literacy classes for adults. And we're talking early, early literacy, phonetics. And I love that they have built a program for their community and that people can go there as adults safely and learn to read. And I think that's really, really wonderful.

Kate  16:00  
Yeah, we actually have a whole department in our system called the Learning Center, and it's just adult education. So adult literacy, GED classes. Our biggest program is ESL. We have, I think, around 1500 adults learning English through our library program. So absolutely, yeah, it's great.

Ali  16:23  
I love hearing about the work that you're doing in your public library, but then also when you shared a little bit about what it was like when you were working as a school librarian. I think I don't know if it was a part of your education program or if that was also one of the jobs that you had, but for teachers or people in the education space who might be considering this as you know their next shift. Can you tell us a little bit about the distinctions between being a librarian in a school versus being like a public library librarian? And then and there's there's also other options outside of those two, but I think those are probably the main tracks. 

Kate  16:58  
Yeah, I feel like you can find the type of librarian that aligns to your type as a teacher, because there's academic librarians, if you like the research and writing papers and those aspects. My school librarian experience is limited to the one school I taught in Nigeria. And I would say it was really difficult for me in that space because I didn't have a network of librarians. So nobody understood what I was doing. But I guess that's probably too specific. So the wider thing, if you're a school librarian, you still work with the curriculum. And I guess it depends on the district how defined that curriculum is. The issue, I would say that I see with a lot of School Librarians, is they're kind of used as like a flex teacher or a flex space. So I do feel like you have to be careful which system you're in, because some systems will just pull you into a classroom if someone's on maternity leave, or you're the substitute teacher on days that they can't get a substitute, which is why I didn't want to continue in the public school system. And also, as budgets become an issue and funding, it typically is one of the first roles to go because people feel like the work that a librarian does can be done by, you know, parent volunteers and other folks, which is great. I mean, that's always helpful, but it does go a little bit deeper, and people that don't understand what libraries are today and what we're, you know, working towards for the future, it's easy to write it off as, Oh well, we can find someone to shelve books. All they do is check out books. And if that's all your librarian does in the school, they're doing it wrong, right? So I would say the public librarian field offers a lot more flexibility. It's very supportive. That's the environment that I was hoping for when I went into teaching. But I found that teachers, and again, in my experience, were pretty competitive, especially when it came to merit based raises. I had a third grade teaching team where they would come in and be like, Oh, can we help you, Kate? And then I realized later, like they're taking books from my classroom and they're telling me, like, misinformation. They were like, Oh, we do this for the test. And then I found out that they were kind of helping their students with standardized tests, where I was like, No, you can't. I can only ask a question, and I can't tell you the answer or anything. So I find the public library field is a lot more supportive. If you ask a librarian a question, whether you're a patron or a colleague, you're going to get the answer, and then a lot of extra resources and other people you can reach out to. So for me, personally, I like the public library field. It can be a bit more stressful, right? Because we are open to the public. Some people don't want to, you know, deal with the troubles of someone that's coming in having a mental health episode and yelling at you that you're the FBI and you're trying to steal their information. A lot of libraries are places you know, where you might find someone overdosing and you have to administer Narcan. So it can be very stressful. So I'll also say that caveat, depending on the environment that you're in. Urban libraries typically are a bit more. You know, you don't know what you're going in for in the day. But I think if you have that willingness to help your community and everyone in your community, it's a great environment to really see what's going on and be aware of the bigger issues. But again, there's also special libraries, so if you love art, you could work in the library of an art museum. If you like the collegial feel, you can work in a university library. So there's lots of different ways. There's law libraries. A lot of people that had a first career, because a lot of librarians, it's their second career. They'll tie it into that. So I know a lot of lawyers that where, like, I did this, I don't like it. I'm going to be a law librarian. So, yeah, I would say explore this, especially if you're passionate about education. The library field is a good place to land, and a lot of the skills transfer over.

JoDee  21:15  
It sounds like at least the public library is a really good place if you're still wanting to serve others, serve the community, and that's a huge desire from teachers when they're looking for a shift, is, how am I still going to serve people? And yeah, I love that you really highlighted those community elements of what you're doing. 

Kate  21:39  
Yeah, I love that about the library.

Ali  21:41  
I also feel like when teachers are looking to make a shift, a lot of times, it's easier to shift into something that you're more familiar with, that you're more comfortable with. And I think is, you know, being in education, you are familiar with libraries, with books, with doing research, with helping people. And I think it could be a really seamless transition, if your heart is in the right place. And it does require advanced education, though, so you do have to get your master's degree to be able to be a full librarian, if I'm not mistaken, right Kate? 

Kate  22:14  
That's correct. Although I do think some states or some systems specifically, as we talk about defunding libraries, I have heard of some systems that were defunded and then they hire librarians that don't have a master's degree. But there's also a lot of other positions that don't need a master's degree. So I just hired a teen services coordinator that was also working in schools. He didn't have his master's in library science, but his programming and connection to the schools was so valuable, so we were able to hire him on as.... we're civil serviceso we have to use those titles. I think it's a Program Specialist too. So we were able to give them like, a comparable salary without the master's degree. And I think a lot of systems are moving away from that, just because we're losing people in libraries. I think it's we have a lot of older people and not so many young, fresh folks. So that's something that we also talk about, is, how do we get more people in and more diversity in the field? Because it's, you know, a bunch of white women right now, and we need to get lots of different faces and different community members in this space. So hopefully that will help when they can see people that look like them as librarians and connect that to like, oh, I can do that. You know, those are some goals for the future.

JoDee  23:36  
I like how you pointed out the different library options. I guess that's never really... I've never really thought about that. How, like, there's the public school library and there's the private school library and there's the public just the public library, there's the private libraries, like you mentioned, the law school library, and I'm thinking about, you know, university libraries. And so there really are options. And like you said, like personality traits and what people may want may gravitate towards another. And I love that there are those options. So you don't really have to, like, conform to being a certain type of person, that you can you can be yourself in an environment that you feel is like best for your for for your career and where you want to spend the majority of your day.

Kate  24:24  
Absolutely like if you like organization, you can go into the catalogs and be a cataloger. If you like to be around a lot of things, not a lot of people, the archives are a great place. If you love people, an outreach librarian, where your job is to go into the community, and not even necessarily be in the branch. So yeah, all I can say is look into it, because I've found it to be a great place to land. And like I said, librarians are so supportive. So if you just even go into your local library and ask, I'm interested in doing this, can you point me in the right direction?  You'll get five different directions, at least, right? 

Ali  25:03  
Yeah. And what I really like hearing about your story in particular, and then I think in general about the field, is that there are roles in libraries that educators could be qualified for right now. So maybe if they wanted to make a shift and see how they like it before they go for that advanced degree, if they decide to do that, that that would be an option. Where I feel like sometimes, if you're making a career shift, you might need a degree like in nursing before you go into nursing. It might be harder to work in that field without that, that education or expertise, but, but the the teacher brain skills that we have and experience are valued in the library. And so I think that could be a really smooth transition. But I want to wrap us up with one last question of advice. So for educators who might be considering a career shift. Maybe they're burnt out. They're overwhelmed. Or they just they just know that they're not going to be in the classroom for the rest of their career. What advice would you offer them, whether it's thinking about teaching abroad, joining a special program, or maybe moving into library sciences? 

Kate  26:08  
I think the advice I would give, really, to anyone that's thinking about a career shift is, you know, if that's where your heart is telling you to go, you owe it to yourself to try it. I think it's especially, I don't know easy/difficult for teachers, because teachers are so burned out that you get to a point that you're like, I cannot continue, even if I wanted to, I just can't do it. At least, that's what it was for me. So it kind of forced me to think about something else. And then, luckily, I already kind of knew the direction I went ahead. And as you pointed out, I didn't need a degree. I started as a library program associate. And I think any career has an aspect like that. You know, if you wanted to switch to be a lawyer, just because we've been talking about law, go be a receptionist and be around the environment and see if it's something you're interested in. There's so many different ways to try it out and see how you feel, because any any career has maybe a bit of an idyllic perception outside looking in, and then you go in, you're like, Oh no, I'm glad I didn't waste my time getting that degree, because this is not what I want to be a part of. But I just would say, in general, and I think in America especially, people can kind of get lost in comparing yourself to where other people are. And I always advocate don't go for the sunk cost fallacy, where this is what I've doing for 15 years, and I've just got to get my 25 years or something. You know, 10 years is a long time, and I think we all owe it to ourselves to dig deep and see what's something you've always wanted to do. I find as I get older, the things that people wanted to do when they were eight years old still kind of apply. They just again that that sunk costs, where it's like, well, I went this direction now I can't go back that way. Try to find a way to give yourself, even if it's a year, to do it and see and then, you know, there's always going to be a need for teachers. So this field in particular, you're never going to burn that bridge. So I say, go for it. Try it and explore and have fun.

Ali  28:17  
I love that advice, and I really couldn't agree more. I I actually still keep up my teaching credential, just in case I ever want to go back to the classroom. I do think that giving yourself that opportunity, we don't get enough of that career exploration at younger ages, and so maybe that's what you need. You need some time in your adult life to figure out what's next for you, and I hope that our podcast kind of helps normalize that a little bit for people, at least for teachers, to know that it's okay you don't have to stay in something for 20 plus years if that's not where you want to be. So this was such a great interview with you, Kate. We really appreciate your time. We do want to let our listeners know that if they're interested in connecting with you, they can find you on Instagram. We're going to link in the show notes how you can connect with Kate on Instagram, and thanks again for your time.

Kate  29:07  
Thank you.

Ali  29:18  
Are you interested in suggesting a topic for Teacher Shift, being a guest or recommending a guest? Please see the episodes page on our website to make a submission. And if you'd like to write for us, see our blog page. If you liked Teacher Shift, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music. Today's episode was written and recorded by me, Ali Simon and my co host, JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teacher Shift. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original music: Emoji by Tubebackr.