How Teaching Skills Translate into Workforce Development Success with Kartav Patel

How do you harness your versatility in a career shift? Today’s guest answers this question as he shares his transition from the classroom to the workforce development sector.

In this episode, Ali and JoDee are joined by Kartav Patel, a former alternative education teacher turned workforce development professional. Kartav shares his career journey from teaching social studies and GED programs at Detroit Public Schools to managing innovative youth programs and apprenticeship pathways.

Together, they’ll discuss how Kartav seamlessly transitioned into workforce development, leveraging his teaching skills like problem-solving, relationship-building, and adaptability. They also talk about apprenticeships and how they are no longer just for college students, but are being used more and more at the high school level. 

You’ll hear more about: 

• Kartav’s unique background in teaching and alternative education programs (and how that aided him in making his transition!)
• Insights on integrating career exploration into classroom curriculum
• Challenges and innovations in transitioning from education to workforce development.
• The value of transferable teaching skills in nonprofit and state government roles
• Advice for educators exploring career shifts through workforce development and apprenticeship programs
• And more!

Tune in for actionable tips, real-world insights, and a fresh perspective on career transitions for educators.

Connect with Kartav:

• LinkedIn

Connect with Ali and JoDee:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teachershift
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/teachershift
Teacher Shift LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/teacher-shift
Ali’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alisimon/
JoDee’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodeescissors/

Website
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/

Episode Transcriptions
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/blog

Transcript

Ali  0:06  
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids kids, but sometimes career goals shift, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible, questioning, who am I, if I'm not a teacher? I'm your host, Ali Simon.

JoDee  0:29  
And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

Ali  0:32  
And this is Teacher Shift.

JoDee  0:33  
Teachers are versatile professionals, but how do you harness that versatility during a career shift? Today, our guest shares their seamless transition from the classroom to the workforce development sector. 

Ali  0:56  
Today, our guest is Kartav Patel. He is a workforce development professional, and currently serves as an Apprenticeship Analyst at the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity. He also teaches GED courses at Dearborn public schools. Before transitioning to his current field, he spent four years as an alternative education teacher in Detroit Public Schools. Welcome to the podcast today.

Kartav  1:21  
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Ali and JoDee. Appreciate it.

Ali  1:25  
Well, it's really great to have you on and we connected as professionals in the apprenticeship space, but I want to learn more about your previous teaching background and how you ended up really where you are today. So can you start off by telling us what subject and grades you taught?

Kartav  1:41  
Yeah, so I went to university at Wayne State University, here in Detroit. And I went into secondary education. And so those that was my certifications, grade six through 12, and I did social studies and health. And after graduation, I actually TA'ed right away. So I was a teaching assistant for our Kinesiology Department in health education, focusing on that for a couple years. And then after I graduated with a master's in health education, I went into Detroit Public Schools. That was the first school district that actually called me. And it was an alternative ed school. So it's alternative adult and community at and that's where I started my teaching career. And so I was asked to teach both social studies and English language arts for those students that are in the high school completion program, and then the night program was the GED program, and so they kind of went hand in hand together. And so that's how I kind of started my teaching career for those four years.

Ali  2:39  
Awesome. Thank you. And I think you may be one of the first guests on the podcast that really has that background in education. So I think it's me really interesting to hear how that translates into making a career shift outside of the classroom.

Kartav  2:54  
Yeah, so with high school completion, it was an online program, but then again, they're based on modules that were online, but then you were also required to teach those classes as well and teach content matter related to those core subjects. And so a lot of the high school completion program consisted of students that were actually 16 to 24 year olds, or actually 16 to 21 year olds, and they were stop out youth, considered stop out youth, and that was during the daytime program. And so that was a lot of fun to really kind of use an online platform at that time. This was like 2008, 9, 10 and really try to make those core subjects, the contents, you know, come alive in terms of a contextualized manner. And then the night program, the GED program, was a lot of fun. That had a lot of older adults, more, I would say, even about the age of 25 and those adults were working during the day, and they couldn't go back and take classes during the day. So they would have to take a night program class. And so that focused mainly on the GED and passing the GED test. And at that time, it was hand written tests. So it was a it wasn't the national online, Pearson vue, it was actually hand, you know, paper and pencil. And so I went year round as well, and coherent with the two semesters within the school year. And so the reason, I guess your first question, is, why I shifted within that program, like within our alternative and adult community ed program. There was a lot of different, different angles of, like, career aspects. So we had, we did host a lot of job fairs, which was very interesting. And I thought that that was really cool. So we had, like, traditional job fairs, where we had employers come in and talk about their perspective openings, and this, even this, the industry that they're in, whether it was healthcare related, manufacturing, construction or IT, and those days were, it was kind of new to have like education and kind of like job training/Workforce Development kind of mix in together. It was still kind of fresh with  school aid funding, but there was an opportunity there for a lot of our students to kind of see like, oh, maybe, you know, once I graduate with my high schoolcompletion or high school diploma or GED, you know, I don't have to go to college. I can go to college, or I can wait, or let me see what's kind of like, the opportunity out there in terms of the career, in terms of the market, right, in something that I want to do. And so there were some, like, really cool things that we took from those career resource fairs, those job fairs, that kind of allowed a lot of us teachers at the time. There's like, I think at one of the schools, we had like six or seven teachers in the building, and we kind of took some of the content material from the employers and try to make it more applicable to the classroom, right in terms of contextualizing it and just kind of, like making the lesson more fun. And I think that was kind of like a cool thing to do within our programs, because we had that flexibility to do that. 

JoDee  5:41  
I think we kind of see programs like this a bit more now is where you're it's really, in the past, been really like college readiness, college focused. But as we see, not everybody takes that track. And so districts are reconsidering, how are they exposing students to different careers. And I'm even thinking about something who was on that college track, but just how narrow of a scope I had in regards to career options. And so you know, you know what is right in front of you, which is, like, what your parents do, and you go to school every day around professionals who are teachers or administrators. And so you kind of just know, like, really, like, what's in front of you. So I love that idea of bringing professionals into, you know, the educational space, but then you guys took it a step further, where you were like, well, how do we integrate this into the curriculum? And I think that's really innovative, and that I love that you had the autonomy to be able to do that, because that's a big thing that kind of keeps teachers driven is, is having options and being able to really hone in on a really strong feeling you have and say, like, I think we need to modify this to see what we can do with it.

Kartav  6:54  
Yeah, absolutely. And just like with any program, if it's K through 12 or alternative or adult alternative ed or adult ed there's performance measures, right? So you try to figure out, you know, your program is supposed to meet these standards, by the state, right and by the feds, and you're trying to, you're trying to meet those performance goals, but you're trying to make it as innovative as possible, and make it make learning fun, obviously, but then also make sure that the students get the most out of it. And so having that autonomy, like you mentioned in the classroom in our programs was was awesome while teaching the content as well. And within those few years, you kind of saw like more of that, like fusion of both Workforce Training and education academic in the classroom. It started shifting more into like, more of a blended approach in terms of the classroom, but again, it was still kind of new at that time. At least it was getting to that point where, you know, that there needed to be more of that. And like you mentioned, college wasn't, it wasn't for everybody. And even when I went to high school, I wouldn't say that I was college ready. I was not maybe this most studious student until, like, later on in my junior year, just trying to, you know, kind of have to figure out what I wanted to do. But like you said, we were only exposed to what was in your home, like who was working on what job, or your neighbors, or your friends, your friends parents, or even, like at the school, you got teachers, nurses, counselors, right? You had administrators and all that. So we really weren't exposed to, like, the different careers that were out there. So we were trying to make sure that we took those employers that came to our schools and make sure that they were offered like, hey, like, this is what they're doing. This is what they're offering. These are just choices. These are opportunities. And if you if you're interested, there's connections here that we can make.

JoDee  8:36  
Yeah, it seems like your transition into, you know, apprenticeship programs was not as drastic because you, you know you were doing that essentially as an educator. And I guess this is more like questions for both you and Ali, when I'm thinking about the way that you're describing this, because I don't necessarily know if like working in apprenticeship. I didn't even know that was like a job. So you guys both kind of have this really unique experience where you, you know, shifted into this area. So what was kind of like the catalyst for that shift, or the inspiration, or maybe it was like a life event in the way that Ali kind of had a life event shift. So from both of you, like, what was it like stepping into that field?

Kartav  9:24  
Well, like you mentioned it, for me personally, it was almost a seamless transition, because everything we did in the classroom was considered apprenticeship readiness  or pre apprenticeship, right? We don't think of I mean, I mean maybe we do now more so than when I was growing up in high school, like, oh, career would come during college years or something like that, right? Or like, post high school. Whereas there was a time where careers were like, Career Tech, like CTE programs, right? And other career programs were being taught in the classroom. You had exposure to it. That kind of like, and when I graduated, like, over 20 some years ago, which kind of shows my age now, but it was really more of a college push, right? Here in Michigan. And so we were, I wasn't as exposed to that. So when I started teaching, my teaching career, it was interesting, because you saw what you could do as innovation in the classroom, and then you realize, oh, this is all pre apprenticeship and, and one of the things that probably inspired me to shift from like the classroom, from a school district to a nonprofit, which is in between my years of working at the state and the school district, was a program called Youth Build. And just that Youth Build training model was very exciting, and I thought it was very innovative, too, and it's been around since the 70s, right? Since the late 70s. I just thought that was such a really cool way to integrate education, job training and those wraparound services for those, those students that need that so they can be successful. And then you're also rebuilding, rehabbing homes. You're doing other things. It's not even just related to construction. You're not just stuck with construction. You can do other programs other industries, with Youth Build, which I thought was really cool. And so when I went to the nonprofit managing youth programs over in southwest Detroit, we had a Youth Build grant, and we had other youth programs. So we actually did do a lot of those construction trade programs, and we rehabbed a lot of affordable housing for the community.

JoDee  11:19  
That's amazing. I love to hear that. I can see Ali, like nodding her head. She has a lot of connections with what you're saying. So Ali, did you have you know, drawing from your experience as a teacher and when you went into youth apprenticeship programs, did you see any parallels between, like, what you did as a teacher and kind of supporting that program,?

Ali  11:43  
I definitely did not have the same parallels that Kartav did. And like, honestly, for me, it just all made sense when I learned about it. It was more like, why aren't we doing this more? Because what I saw in high schools, I was a high school Spanish teacher, was really this big push towards college, and it wasn't exposing students through different programs. Like whether it was youth build or pre apprenticeship or career and technical education, and to a certain degree, even now, where the work that I do, I think still, a lot of the programs are almost like, I don't want to say siloed, but, but you're either going to a traditional high school, or you're at, you know, a technical high school, or you're in a special program within a high school. But I really think that these activities could be more embedded, and they could be honestly talked about even sooner, which, which, I think is something that that is, is a big discussion point right now, like moving down from just high school to talking about career learning in middle school and even elementary school. And that's that's the work that I'm engaged in now has has moved into more of that broader space. But I love the apprenticeship model. I'm glad that you brought up Youth Build, because I think that's a program that really not a lot of people know about unless you've worked with a program like that. So for our listeners, definitely Google Youth Build. You know, it's a great program that that does exist, and it's just grown so much. But I think you know when the practicality of of actually bringing in more career learning for young people at an earlier age is just so important, and we we know that there are lots of other paths to high paying jobs besides just college, with the work that has been going on, especially, I'd say, within probably the last five to 10 years. So I think you know it was interesting to hear about the shift to the nonprofit. And looking at basically your experience, how did you kind of grow within that nonprofit and maybe, like, what do you think allowed you to do that? Do you feel like having that, we call it the teacher brain. But like, there's teacher brain skills. They're skills that you learn from being in the classroom, right, that carry over, I think, to a lot of the careers that we transition into. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Kartav  13:58  
Yeah, so you're absolutely right being a teacher in the classroom, any kind of classroom. You're a teacher of whatever subject it is or whatever material you're teaching. I mean, it transfers over to really, any job, any industry, because what you learn from a practical standpoint, from a University Prep Center and then classroom experience. You learn how to deal with challenges and obstacles. You learn how to deal with management, behavior management. You learn how to problem solve, right? Critically, think about solutions to help your students achieve and be the best versions of themselves they can possibly be, and even help set goals. Those students that are just not interested in learning right now, or they're just, you know, they don't know what they want or what they kind of do, but then, you know, you want to bring it out of them to say, hey, look, you know, what are you interested in? Right? Yeah, those skill sets, they transfer in any industry, right? Their people skills. Teachers have a lot of empathy. I thought that was probably my greatest strength, is being very empathetic, just being able to identify myself in my students shoes, being through what they've been through as well in various scenarios, right? That kind of transferred over into the nonprofit, because that was more of a, that was my, my next move, in terms of a career growth, you know, in terms of administration, like administering grant programs, administrating programs, developing programs, really, developing that training, that program model for that nonprofit, so then it could be sustainable, right? So even fundraising, that whole aspect. Just making sure, like, oh, okay, this is how these dollars work. These restricted dollars work because they come from the government, or they come from philanthropy, or these are individual donors, right? So that kind of, those teaching skills kind of helped me keep those relationships with those funders too, because that's all you know, making sure that you're able to keep positive relationship. And then also, if things don't necessarily go your way within your you know, in terms of your your nonprofit program, how to deal with those, those challenges there, right? Like, okay, how can we come together and make this challenge turn into now, okay? And we, we got a solution for it. Those happened a lot, and I was there for about nine and a half, maybe 10 years. We worked with a lot of different partners. So for those in nonprofits right now, they would know it's just not one organization. You're working with, lots of organizations, lot of stakeholders at the table that all contribute to that program, right? And those resources that help your program grow and help sustain and really help cultivate a positive culture. That's the key, right there. It was a pretty good transition. I would say that your teacher skills always will always translate to a lot of different industries, just because of that ability to relate to individuals and then foster that positive vibe.

JoDee  16:40  
I love seeing a teacher, what we mentioned a teacher brain, like, go into another sector, but see that teacher brain, those skills, that knowledge, that perspective, like, really flourish. You mentioned problem solving, and I think the teachers are really good problem solvers. Not just, I mean, we're talking like curriculum behavior management or lack of resources, like they're they're always trying to think of ways to improve the learning environment. And sometimes that means being inventive, being innovative. And so when you know you think about this special ability of educators who can bring a different perspective, who can look at adults and see not just an adult, but see like disabilities. You can see needs. You can see like, you know, you kind of like, revert back and see like, oh, I unders. I get this adult because they're like this student, and so when you are like, you know, making that shift into a new workforce, how do you like, use your perspective as a teacher, your knowledge to be able to work with diverse adults, diverse groups of people, to, you know, help them start their career, to help them be successful? 

Kartav  17:59  
Yeah, like you mentioned, as teachers, we tend to use that perspective of like, Oh, I've had this experience before, right, with the student. You know, there's always that relatable moment from a student to an adult, right? Like working, working direct service with teenagers, versus working classroom with adults that have a lot of experience and work experience and life experience, and then working with stakeholders in a nonprofit, mainly adults, with program development, implementation. And even at the state level right working with other other state level entities. I think that's one aspect right there. I would also say it's just really just trying to get to know people. That's really just what teachers do. They try to get to know the individual and just try to learn more about them so that they can better understand their perspective and where they're coming from. I think you know, as you know, when we did like teacher school and all that, and we did behavior management in a classroom, they kind of taught you, kind of like the framework principles and how to like, really be able to take control the classroom. You take what you can, right? It's really about the experience. It's really about once you get into the classroom with your pre student, pre student teaching and your student teaching and and how you're going to, you know, handle different situations, that kind of plays a huge role. And so I'm, I'm very like in terms of relating to individuals. I like to make sure I make eye contact, right? You know, that's one of the big things that I do now, is still, when I have meetings or Zoom meetings, I want to make sure I have eye contact and they know that I'm there and I'm listening, right? Because I actually am listening to you and what you're saying. And they talked about making sure you move around in the classroom. I guess when we're at these in person meetings now, I want to make sure that we're also be able to move and be mobile and all that kind of make sure that you're present, show your presence there. And say that, hey, you know, I'm here to listen, and your perspective is important. I want to, you know, kind of understand it, and being able to connect like any teacher can with their student. I mean, that's the ultimate goal, because once you can connect with your student, you have their attention. And in the same concept, in a corporation, right? Or wherever like, to be able to connect with your employees, able to connect with your key partners or new partners. It just makes the relationship so much better. And you're able to kind of bounce off ideas, and you're able to have disagreements without conflict. 

JoDee  20:12  
What I'm hearing is like relationship building, which is one of the most essential skills of an educator. And I find myself in the workforce, and just like everyday social situations where there's kind of these two options, you can relationship build or you can steamroll and just like, you know, force something. And I am not, I'm not the steamroll personality. I'm like relationship first. And I know that in some collaboration, sometimes that kind of forceful approach is what they want for me, and I oftentimes do not take that approach, because in the long term, the relationship is much more fruitful. It is much more collaborative and it lasts. The relationship lasts much longer. And I also don't want people to be afraid to ever approach me. You know, I will always want to be an approachable person, which is one of the personality traits I've tried to convey as an educator was, I want to be approachable by a student, but also like their family or like an educator in the building. Like sometimes I have like this, like, resting B face, which doesn't help me, but I have to, you know, put on my smile and just make sure that if someone doesn't know me, that, like I am approachable.

Kartav  21:31  
That is also a good point. Being approachable. And like, that's something that I I've always tried to be as well, and it's hard sometimes, because sometimes people like, oh, you had this really sharp look when sharp look when you're, you know, intense look. But I was like, No, I'm just listening intently right during the meeting. So it's kind of like, No, you can always ask me questions. You can always approach me. It's interesting now, as I continue on in this career path with state government, and if somebody at a conference knows that you work for the state, you know they have this idea of like, oh, okay, this person's from the state. And like, No, I, you know, I I'm not really like, I'm very approachable, very flexible. I'm not like, this is what I do. This is my passion. This is I'm very fortunate to be working in this in state government, doing this type of work, because I love doing it, and the work is good, and I love the people that I work with. So you can always come and ask me questions, right? I feel like they'll be like, Oh, maybe I should go to somebody else in between us, or go to, you know, like, No, you can always ask me questions. You know, whatever you need. Like, I'm here to help, and my colleagues are here to help too, and we can help facilitate that connection, like, what you're looking for, to build your programs, right? To build to get you connected to an apprenticeship program, to help serve the community that you're serving, right? So being approachable is definitely a key that I try to do as well.

Ali  22:44  
 I do feel like when you're coming from like the state level, or someone's at the state level, government, you know, government, that it can feel like that. And I will say that, you know, having the background that you do, if people know that, I'm sure it makes you seem a lot more approachable. Like, if they know that you kind of, you had a really, what, I think, natural progression going from, you know, being in the classroom and then moving into nonprofit work that was working on workforce development and working with programs, and then moving into the state level. But it is hard. Like on paper, I think we make a lot of assumptions about people. And so trying your best to communicate, whether it's through eye contact, whether it's through, you know, verbally saying, like, Oh no, please come to me. I never, I never really felt like you weren't approachable. So I do think you did a good job. We've been on a lot of like, live events together, and we did get to meet in person, which was great time that we done on a big Youth Apprenticeship Grant Program. But no, I do think that hearing your story and really learning about the progression that you had professionally, I'm wondering if you could share for others that are considering a career shift, and maybe it is into the workforce development or apprenticeship space, what advice would you give them about navigating that transition and finding success in a new field?

Kartav  24:05  
Well, I would just say, just give it a shot. Try doing what you want. I mean, follow your passion, right? So you start off as a teacher. I find with some of my former peers that were in teacher school with me, some of them dropped out, right, during pre student teaching, which is totally fine, because they they realize, hey, I I can teach. I can understand the content, the subject matter, I can put it down on paper. But, man, when I'm in the classroom, I just get too nervous, or I just don't know what I'm doing, or I just don't feel like I'm the right person to do this, right? And then sometimes, even after a few years, you might get burnt out, right? Like, as a teacher, you know, depending on where you're at, you're going to get burned actually, you know, you're going to get burnt out no matter what, when you're when you're a teacher, because you're so invested in your in the success of your students, and then all the admin requirements, and then the parents and the G\guardians, or, you know, all the other stuff that you have to do, you're just going to get burnt out, right? And so my advice is, okay, if you're looking for a change, but you are a teacher, I would recommend looking at the workforce development, right? Because that's kind of like hand in hand, like, oh, this. There may be some overlapping similarities, right, in terms of, like, what you want to do in workforce development, job training, right? Maybe switching sub subjects in your teaching career, maybe moving over to CTE programs, right? Looking at adult ed as well. Adult Ed is a different population to work with, and you're working with adults and so they have huge life experience, right? So there's so many things that you could do. You could just try shadowing, like, try volunteering for a Workforce Development Agency, try volunteering at your GED program in your community, right? Just kind of like, Oh, I just kind of want to see what it's like. And can you explain to me a little bit more?  I would just encourage that person to do that, because there's so many things that might be eye opening to you, or going to, like a construction trades fair and how they work with the high schools or or even just looking at the CTE programs. Like, oh, how do you what do you teach? And what are your some of your projects that you do here? And just like looking at that first, and then figure out what you want, you know in terms of what you want, in terms of where you want to take your your next step, your career. And you might just want to be where you're at. Maybe you just wanted to see what was out there, and then you went back to teaching the same subjects that you're teaching. Or maybe you make that shift. Maybe you have that, that courage today. You know, I'm going to do that. I'm going to go ahead and do this and and really, this is where I want to be in the next three years, five years or 10 years.

Ali  26:29  
I think that's really great advice. And I have to say that we are actually recording this episode during National Apprenticeship Week. So I would be remiss to not say that another thing you could consider that's really been growing a lot, and I think you would agree, is educator pathways in apprenticeship. So you know, if you're considering moving into apprenticeship or career and technical education, there's a lot of paraprofessional, pre educator pathways, and I think they could use teachers to help develop those programs. You have the experience.A lot of times, one of the biggest barriers for educators and CTE programs, is that they have to be like qualified to be able to teach those courses. And so if you have your degree in education, your master's degree in education, you would be a good fit for those programs. So it's just something that I that as you're going through this and like, I would be remiss if I did not say. This is something that's really growing in the US, and I think it will continue to grow. It's a great way to help solve a lot of the problems, I think, in education, which is a lot of student debt to become a teacher, which unfortunately, doesn't pay as much as other careers.

Kartav  27:36  
And like you mentioned with apprenticeship, I mean, the assumption apprenticeship is that it's trades, right? And it's not apprenticeship is really any industry. You can really do an apprenticeship program, a registered apprenticeship program, from us, DOL, in any industry. And that's the nice thing about we have a lot of healthcare apprenticeship programs out there, information technology, right? We have agricultural programs, outdoor recreation, and, like you mentioned, public sector, right? There's public sector with government now. Those apprenticeships are, are starting to get more intention and then teacher programs, right? Getting your your foot in the door in terms of, maybe I want to be a teacher, but, you know, I can't afford to go to college or, you know, maybe I can do this teacher apprenticeship program and see what it's like, right? And it's still the same. You're still getting the same materials. You're still getting the same using the same certifications for each state. Nothing's changed, right? Whether you do the college, traditional college, or if you do like our teacher program here in Michigan, you're still getting the same academic content. You're still going through the same rigorous program to become a teacher. That's just two different pathways, right? It's just like that career ladder, like where you have on ramps, off ramps, you know, on ramps, off ramps, or just like a detour to somewhere else, right? So that's what we're trying to do with apprenticeship, to say, hey, look, apprenticeship can be a very flexible training model. They could start right away. You can start in high school. You can be 16 years old, because that's the minimum age, and then you can start looking at your career at that point as a young person, say, Okay, well, maybe I'm going to, you know, but by the time 19, 20 you know, I'm going to go back, I'm going to go to college for four years, I'm going to get this degree and in business administration or whatever it is, right? But the nice thing about apprenticeship is, you know Ali, is that many of them do offer that college credit. So it goes hand in hand. And they're working with the universities and the community colleges. So we've been trying to break that, that myth of it's either apprenticeship or college. No, it's actually, it's really both you're doing at the same time, right?

Ali  29:35  
Absolutely, I think it can really be both. And what I'm hoping that our listeners get from today's episode, besides learning about your story, is that there are all of these other options and career paths and ways to get trained in professions that, frankly, I don't think all educators know about. So if you want to learn more about apprenticeship and connect with Kartav. You can find him on LinkedIn. We'll link that in our show notes for today. And I really want to thank you for being a guest today on the podcast. It was such a great conversation. 

Kartav  30:06  
No, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Ali  30:07  
Are you interested in suggesting a topic for Teacher Shift, being a guest or recommending a guest? Please see the episodes page on our website and make a submission. And if you'd like to write it for us, see our blog page. If you liked Teacher Shift, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple,podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music. Today's episode was written and recorded by me, Ali Simon and my co host, JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teacher Shift. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original music: Emoji by Tubebackr.