Handling Job Rejection and Employer Ghosting With Ali Simon and JoDee Scissors

Is the fear of rejection holding you back from making a shift or applying for jobs that excite you? Today, Ali and JoDee are tackling the difficult topic of rejection. Together, they’ll discuss their own experiences with rejection, why having a support system is crucial for moving past the rejection, and how to handle it when making career shifts. 

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Transcript

Ali  0:06  
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids' kids. But sometimes career goals shift, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible questioning, who am I, if I'm not a teacher? I'm your host, Ali Simon.

JoDee  0:29  
And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

Ali  0:32  
And this is Teacher Shift.

JoDee  0:43  
Have you ever felt the excitement of a job you've interviewed for? Perhaps even a tinge of nervousness? Only later to find out you've been rejected or even worse, ghosted. We're not going to sugarcoat this episode, rejection in all forms stinks. So today, Ali and I are going to talk about rejection and how to handle it.

Ali  1:04  
JoDee this is such a difficult topic to tackle because I think everybody has experienced rejection. And like you said, it's just not fun. No matter what form it comes in, even if, even if you might be expecting it. Rejection is just not something that people want to deal with. But it is really a reality when you're looking to shift careers. And it's something that I think you and I have a lot of experience with, with our transition. So I think we're going to jump right in and talk about rejection. So have you ever experienced rejection?

JoDee  1:39  
Of course. It doesn't feel good. And in all forms, like it's not just jobs. I could literally walk up to like a corndog stand and order a corndog. And they say, we're out of corndogs. And I would feel immense rejection just from not not being able to get what I want. Because that's what we want is when we apply for jobs, and we interview for them, and we're going after something, we want it. And it doesn't feel good at all, whenever you've ever experienced it. And I think there's a little bit more level of pain, when there's a lot at stake, such as a job. Because you have a salary to depend on. You have responsibilities that rely on an income. You have professional goals that you're trying to achieve. And when you don't get something that you've worked hard for, it stings a lot. Can you relate to that? 

Ali  2:36  
Yes, I think, you know, even if it's not a job, but it's something like you're pitching an idea that you are really excited about at work or you know, in your community. And then it doesn't people don't, don't agree with your opinion, like that was the other thing that came to mind when you said it's not just work. But I think with your professional life, especially once you've been in the workforce for a while, you get pretty invested in your job. It's a part of your identity, like we talk about a lot on the podcast, especially as a teacher. That's a part of who we are, who will always be is like that teacher identity. And so I think when you're looking to move into a different field, or when you've found the field that you're moving into, and then you're looking to switch roles, or what switch companies that that means something to you, right? So if you apply to a position at a company doing something similar to what you're doing now, and you don't get the job, it makes you feel bad. I mean, it's just normal to feel like that. And also like, we want to normalize that it's okay to feel bad. It's okay to have those feelings. And generally, it's because you care about something, right? Like you're, you're sad about something. You're, you're feeling that disappointment, because you're passionate about it, or because you were really looking forward to something. And so I think that's just what we're going to talk about is our own experiences. And we hear this a lot from our listeners. 

JoDee  4:01  
And it's not really anything unique to us, or perhaps someone that is listening. Because we've had so many guests on the episode that talk about that rejection piece. And a lot of times these are kind of pieces that sometimes our listeners don't get us after we record we talk offline with our guests a lot. And there's kind of this level of unpacking that guests do after the recording has stopped, and they're willing to let down a little bit more. And one of those things is just expressing some of the pains that rejection can cause and recalling some of the things that they wished that they had done differently. But in the end, you know, they persevered. But rejection is not unique to just one single person. It is part of the application process. It's part of the interview process. And statistically, you're not going to get every job that you apply for. So you have to be able to handle the hard feelings of rejection.

Ali  5:09  
Right, snd I think that as long as you go into that process, understanding that, right? Understanding that there are a lot of applicants for roles these days, particularly roles that are remote or hybrid, because they're they're becoming, to some degree, in certain fields, less and less, in other fields, they're still available. But knowing that those are really competitive right now. And, you know, it's not like when you are a teacher, and you have taught your subject area for 10 years, seven years, you're applying to a new school, similar situation. And great, you have a lot of experience. If you're transitioning into something that's new for you, even if you have all of the skills, you have to really prove to the interviewers that you're the best person for this job. And one thing that a friend told me who does hiring for his company, in a totally different field outside of education, is that sometimes you get rejected even when you are a stellar candidate, because there are like three stellar candidates. And so they have to make a choice, if there's only one role. They wish they could hire all three of the finalists, but at the end of the day, they have to make a decision. And so I also want you to know, listeners that you may be rejected not because you're not a perfect fit, but because there were too many perfect fits, and they just can't have everybody. 

JoDee  6:37  
Yeah, and you can't take it personal, because we're all wonderful people. But there's also, you know, great people out there as well. And it's tough for a hiring manager to make those choices. You know, I've been in positions where we've had to make decisions about candidates. And when you're on that side of it, it stinks as well, because you really, you know, you appreciate multiple candidates. And it's, it's not always easy to be able to make that selection and not feel a little bit of guilt about the decision you have to make because in the end you have to let somebody down. And I think from our teacher brains, we know that that's not really what we like to do. We don't like to let people down. We like to uplift. We like to ensure people feel strong and empowered, and maintain a healthy self esteem. And so I think just naturally teachers don't really like that. I'm sure though, that there's like tons of brain science behind rejection. So we can leave it to like listeners to go do their own research, but it feels like a punch in the gut. It feels like, or at least for me, when I have been rejected, it feels like an attack on your self esteem. And that's where like when I started first applying. I've actually pulled up... I'm going to pull up my spreadsheet right now. So like in 2019, when I started applying for jobs, I kept applying and applying and applying and applying and I was ghosted by some and I heard back from others that I didn't get the job. But there was just like one job that I really, really wanted. And I didn't get it. And I felt the most extreme numbness that I have ever felt in my life. Like, I was like laying on the couch face down, like what is happening to me. I feel so like, worthless. I feel like I'm not good enough. And it was like this, just I don't know what I had come over my body, what was triggered in my brain to make me just feel this like, hot numbness over me because the rejection felt so bad. 

Ali  9:02  
I think that we have to acknowledge that rejection is going to feel bad, the level of like, badness. That's not really the right word. 

JoDee  9:13  
I think we can think of a lot of words Yes, explicit words to describe it but yeah,

Ali  9:17  
Right. So like the like how deeply you feel that rejection is really going to depend I think on your investment and like how much you really wanted that job. Maybe what point you are in the process. But ultimately, you do need to allow yourself to feel those things. We are not going to tell you that you should not feel those things. But how do you move on when you're feeling so down or so hopeless? And I think when you know you've been rejected, right when you officially get an email or a call that you weren't, you didn't move on in the process. Okay, that allows you that time to like mourn, to start processing how you're feeling. What I really struggled with was the jobs that I never received that call for. Like, there was one that I made it pretty far into the interview process. And I just got ghosted, you know? And I didn't hear back from anybody. And it was a huge surprise in that industry specifically, like, usually they do let people know. So it was just really weird. And I kept thinking like, oh, well, maybe they're just not going to hire for a while, you know, whatever. And then I've been another job opportunity came up, and I ended up taking it. It worked out. But it's just, it's hard when you don't know. And so I would also, like, say that you might not ever know that you do that you got the job officially. I mean, at some point, you're like, I didn't get the job. But you know.

JoDee  10:39  
And I can say, like, I definitely don't agree with that approach. Like, I think every buddy that is hiring should have some sort of protocol for letting people know. But you know, we can't control others. And being ghosted stinks. Because you don't know if you should move on. You don't know if you should follow up. And you don't know if you should wait. And there are jobs that I applied for where I waited and didn't hear back for like three months, where I finally got that letter or that call. And it was by that point, I had already moved on. I had already come to terms with the fact that like, I can't just hold on to this opportunity. This is for me. I need work. I need to fulfill a job because I'm not lined up with another job. So I, at that point, had to move on. But you know, it does stink. And I think we've touched on this before in other episodes, that when you're in the teaching profession, you usually hear about jobs pretty quickly, because everybody's trying to move to fill their allocations. And make sure that there is a teacher body in every classroom. And so it is expedited, which is quite a benefit to applying to teaching roles.

Ali  11:58  
Very convenient when you're looking for a job to know, okay, I got this job, or I didn't. And so I think you should just keep applying to jobs. Like if you're not sure, if you haven't heard back, keep applying to jobs, because that time in between where you wait, that's wasted time. And the worst case scenario, which is actually the best case, is that you get offered that job, and you're already interviewing for another job, right? So like, then you have to make a choice, do I take the job? Do I keep interviewing for this other job? Can I hold off a little bit on letting them know, etcetera, etcetera. But keep going. Do not just apply and wait. That is not a good strategy. And especially if you're looking to move into a role within a certain timeframe, and you don't have unlimited time, right? Like you may have given your notice for the end of the school year. Or you may know that you're going to give your notice. And so you really want to have that next job lined up. So just keep going. Keep persevering. And then hopefully, if you do find out that you don't get the role that you're waiting on, you have another interview lined up, coming up pretty quickly. And I think that can help... that helps me bounce back when I was like, okay, obviously, I'm not getting this other job. But then you had another job interview, it helped lift my spirits, for sure.

JoDee  13:10  
Being proactive and staying busy can always help. When I didn't hear from people or I got a rejection letter, I really relied on my circle. And I know that's something that we speak about often is that before you even jump into this, like make sure you have your core people to be able to rely on. Because that's who I needed to pick me up when I was feeling that numbness and that like worthlessness. It was my husband that came in and was like, what's going on? Are you okay? He knows, like if I'm on the couch, and I'm just like not doing anything he knows there's something wrong because I'm such a busy body. 

Ali  13:54  
You are a busy body. I know you too. I would know that something is wrong. 

JoDee  13:58  
So it's like an immediately like Jodi's on the sofa, what's going on? And that's just something in general that I think that people know about me is that when I'm feeling down, I'm always just super critical of myself. I have to have my cheerleaders around me to be able to build me back up and be like, Okay, you got this. You got this. Remember, remember why your great.

Ali  14:23  
Right. And I think that that's really a part of the process that we talked about, for our own selves, like what it was like when we were shifting. But also like, what we encourage others to do is to surround yourself with that group of cheerleaders to, you know, have people that are safe for you to talk to you about, you know, what you're about to go into, which is potentially looking to move into a different space, whether that's still within the schoolhouse, but you're applying, you know, to other positions at your school, maybe leadership roles. Maybe you're looking to move to the school district, or maybe you're looking to move outside of education but you want to have people there that you can talk to about that. And I think it can be really isolating when you're a classroom teacher, because you are scared to tell other people that you might be leaving that you work with. 

JoDee  15:10  
Yeah, there's a bit of fear there. But also, you know, when you are talking about it, and you are acknowledging the rejection, it's healthy. Because you don't want to do the latter, which is becoming desperate and applying for jobs that aren't going to fill your bucket. Or maybe reaching out to unreliable recruiters, or, or getting caught up in some sort of, I don't know, job opportunity that is just not right for you. So you want to make sure that you're not doing something that down the road, could be really harmful. And so you have to maintain that that healthy mindset and those healthy practices for applying to job and not letting the desperation of it all get to you. 

Ali  16:00  
Yes, I agree with that. And I also think another step that you can take is to be constantly improving upon yourself. So if you have an interview, one of the things I like to do is I learned this, I forget, which if it was a guest, or if it was, you know, sort of professional in this landscape. But they said like write down the type of questions that the interviewers asked you, if you were stumped at all. Take notes about like things that you noticed that could have been improved upon. I tend to like, speak for too long sometimes, like, oh, I'll just be really into a question, and I'll just kind of keep going. I realized that was something I could improve upon. I could be more to the point direct, thorough, but I didn't have to take up as much time in my interviews. And so just take notes after each interview and improve upon, you know how you did. You can also reach out for feedback to the interviewers. You can also get feedback before you even start applying on things like your resume, your cover letter. Again, a lot of these things are just really allowing you to be proactive, and then positively like reactive. Like you. Okay, so you had you had an interview, and you're like, Okay, that was my first interview that I've had in five years and it did not go so well. Yeah, we all have those experiences.

JoDee  17:14  
It's almost like so you know, taking that a step further is, you know, you've gone through the process. You've requested feedback, but you have to be able to be actionable with the feedback that you are given or even the critiques of yourself. You have to reflect on your resume. You have to reflect on that interview that you had. Because there are always going to be upgrades to anything like it. Any lesson I could have taught could have always had an upgrade to it. In the end, I'm going to do this better next time. I'm going to try this strategy instead. So if you kind of use that approach that we know that we all have the repertoire to do is reflect on our performance. When you're in an interview, you're in a performance. Reflect on the way that you delivered that information and what you can do better. And also think about the audience's that you interviewed for. There are so many jobs where you have to meet with multiple parties, and on multiple days, before you even get a final answer. And when you go into those interviews, reflect on who you interviewed with. Was it your peers? Was it the administrators? Was it executives? Wh o are you meeting with? What could you do to better tailor your interview to those audiences? And so I think that that's a big thing is just really, you have to reflect and you have to be actionable with your own feedback and the feedback of others.

Ali  18:42  
Definitely. And I think, you know, constructive criticism is welcome. It's something that we all don't handle so gracefully, like I struggled with that for a while. But that's something you could also improve upon, you know, handling that type of feedback, and just improving upon yourself. So I think one way that you can help prepare yourself is you could even ask a friend or colleague, your spouse, put some questions to paper and have them practice asking you. Like, we had an episode not too long ago, where we talked about an elevator pitch that I had, I had practiced before I went to a job fair. Like, practice does make perfect if you practice enough. You will be more confident, and you'll be able to answer interview questions better. And you know your strengths and weaknesses, right. So you know, like, maybe the interview itself is going to be the most difficult part or maybe you're going to ace that. But there might be a different part of that process. Like I had to do an assignment one time like I actually got a task that I had to work on for an interview process. 

JoDee  19:46  
Yeah, I remember this. 

Ali  19:48  
Yeah, that was like the first time I ever had first and last. Don't do that. And so just know that, you know, different jobs might have different requirements outside of like teaching. So be aware of that, that you might have some other things to look forward to. And I think it comes back to making sure that you're checking in with the people in your circle. You're keeping them in the loop with what you're working on. So that, you know, you do have someone patting your back afterwards and you are able to really just debrief with someone. That's something that helps me a lot. Okay, well, I think this went well and this didn't go well. And then, you know, move on from there.

JoDee  20:28  
Yeah, I'm gonna bet that you're really good at interviews with your theater back. I know that when we're rehearsing things, or when we're doing our photo shoots and stuff, you always have like such a knack for, like, performance, on top of the fact that you're also very smart person. 

Ali  20:45  
You know, I mean, I, I think that actually being in theater growing up, prepared me really well to be a teacher too, because in a way you're performing every day in front of your students, right? 

JoDee  20:55  
Did it prepare you for rejection? 

Ali  20:58  
Oh, 100% Yes, theater prepared me for rejection. Because while I enjoyed it, and I liked it, and I think I was I was good. I had a younger sibling who was great at theatre. And so we were often at the same auditions for similar parts. And I usually did not get them. And she did. And so it was like a lot of rejection in theater. Eventually, I did have my turn. We got a little bit older, and I got into one show that she didn't get into. And it was like, Okay, well, I'm glad that I stuck with it. I mean, I wish you would have gotten in the show, too, but was an older cast. And I really think that the fear of rejection, I think our generation we're still okay with rejection. We, we were maybe raised by parents who didn't try to protect us as much from rejection. Right? Maybe we tried out for different teams at our school, or we did theater even though we wouldn't make it every time or, you know, we applied for things even though we might not get them. And it was a, it was a far reach. But I find that the students that I was teaching my last few years in the classroom, and actually all of our like family relatives, who had kids like in high school, and actually the youngest one just graduated college, they were a lot more cautious about letting their kids put themselves out there. They're like, Oh, well, so and so's not going to make the volleyball team because all the kids who've been playing, you know, club volleyball for years. They're never going to make it well. I tried out for the volleyball team in middle school, and I've never played club volleyball. And some people got cut. Like, yes, there were cuts. Somehow I made it. I don't know, I enjoy sports and athletics.

JoDee  22:40  
You put yourself out there. That was, yeah, that's such a huge talking point among like, our little like community of family and friends, is that like, yes, we want our kids to be successful. We want our friends to be successful. Our family to be successful. But also, you have to be able to experience rejection. You have to be able to experience hardships. Otherwise, like, just like life is not given to you that simply. And we shouldn't be creating kind of this utopian universe for young people or even ourselves that it's part of life. And that's why in the end, when you've gone through all of this process of rejection, and you've you know, you've been proactive and you've gotten feedback, and you've converged with your circle that you have to get back on the horse. You just have to you have to keep applying. You have to keep putting yourself out there. Because that's the only way to get to your end goal, which is to secure a job. And every time I think about if I'm doing something that's really challenging, such as trying to secure a job, I always, always think about this viral video. I don't know if you've seen it before. But it's, it's the Duke women's head coach, and she talks about handle hard better. And when I listen to that speech, I am always reminded of how far I've come along since like my first job, and experiencing like, feedback from principals, from teachers, from parents, from applying to jobs, to moving across the country, and how all of these events that have occurred in my life, death, having a child and making difficult decisions for them, like there are all these decisions through life that we have to make and in all of those, you might have rejection as part of it. And I feel like at this point in my life that I've gotten better at handling it because I've had hard things happen. And I figured out healthy ways to cope with it. And get back on the horse and try again.

Ali  24:58  
Yes because there are going to be hard things in life. There's, there's no avoiding that unless you just never take risks or never made those decisions, right? Like we could put off those things, right? Oh, I'm not ready to have kids yet, or I'm not ready for this, I'm not ready for that. But when you think about the job search, specifically, low risk is going to mean potentially low reward. If you're only applying to jobs, that, you know, you think you would be a shoo in, or maybe they're like more entry level, and you're worried about taking a chance on something a little bit more challenging to move into? Well, that's what you're gonna end up with. And so if that's where you want to be, that's okay. But I think if you if you take the risk, and if you put yourself out there more, and you work on tailoring your skills and your resume towards roles that are a little bit more of a reach, then that is an option for you. But if you don't put yourself out there, you know, if you don't risk it, you're not going to have that reward as an option. 

JoDee  26:00  
Well, and as we learned in the last episode with Courtney, like she was a low risk person. She didn't like risk taking. And she knew to get what she wanted, she had to be a little bit more of a risk taker. And she has reaped the rewards of taking that risk. And you're right, like risk taking is a skill that we try to teach our students, and how much more meaningful is it when you can do it yourself. 

Ali  26:28  
Absolutely. And, you know, I think what it really comes back to, for how to handle this whole situation is that it's hard to do it alone. If you are trying to handle, you know, making such a big change in your life, and then all of the feelings that come along with it by yourself, then it's going to be harder. So surround yourself with people who you can confide in people who will be there for you. And they can be your support. You can lean on them through everything, including potentially rejection. And you know, remember, all it takes is one yes. If you have five no's, six no's, 10 no's, 20 no's, but you have one, yes, that's amazing. And you're not going to get every job you apply for it. 

JoDee  27:14  
Sometimes we have to build the courage to be able to talk about those things. And one of the ways that I did that was there were a couple of books that I read. And I know that people listen to podcasts. And there are certain like social communities, like definitely lean into those things. I leaned into the literature that I was reading that helped me with transition. I leaned into my people to build that courage to be able to have those kind of hard conversations with the people that were concerned about me, or the people that just were like, Hey, you gotta keep moving forward. 

Ali  27:48  
Yes. So find those people, lean in, share with them. And I think that's great advice. Like, you know, reading books can definitely help improve your motivation, your outlook, like what you're looking for in life, figuring out who you are. And then acknowledging that rejection is part of the process. Whenever we make changes in our lives. You know, it's just it's a normal thing. And we know that you can over overcome it. But let yourself feel those things and we wish you the best of luck in your your teacher shift if that's what you're doing right now and in other facets of life where you might have to deal with rejection. 

JoDee  28:27  
Agree. 

Ali  28:29  
Hey Teacher Shift listeners, JoDee and I are taking a month off for summer break. Tune back for our next episode which will air on August 7th. Thanks 

Are you interested in suggesting a topic for Teacher Shift? Being a guest or recommending a guest? Please see the episodes page on our website to make a submission. And if you'd like to write for us, see our blog page. If you liked Teacher Shift, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music. Today's episode was written and recorded by me, Ali Simon and my co host, JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teacher Shift. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original Music: Emoji by Tubebackr.