Teacher Shift

Giving Notice and Sticking to Your Non-Negotiables With Courtney Fearing

• Ali Simon & JoDee Scissors • Episode 90

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Experiencing transitions can cause an array of emotions, but what happens when you experience multiple transitions at once? This week our guest gives us insight into making several life transitions at the same time, including a shift outside of the classroom!

Today, Ali and JoDee sit down with Courtney Fearing. Courtney is a former teacher who currently works as a Customer Success Manager at Skilljar. Together, they’ll discuss the risks associated with leaving teaching, the importance of figuring out your non-negotiables, and the challenges of exiting teaching.

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Episode Transcriptions
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Ali  0:06  
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids kids. But sometimes career goals shift, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible questioning who am I if I'm not a teacher? I'm your host, Ali Simon.

JoDee  0:29  
And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

Ali  0:32  
And this is Teacher Shift.

JoDee  0:43  
We have lots of transitions in life, and sometimes they can happen all at once. Today's guest tells us what it's like to give your notice, get married, move to a new city and look for a new job outside of teaching.

Ali  0:58  
Today our guest is Courtney Fearing. Courtney is a former middle school and high school teacher turned Customer Success Manager at Skilljar. She lives just outside of Sacramento with her husband, two little boys and dog named Marvin. Her newest hobby is sourdough bread baking. Welcome to the show today, Courtney.

Courtney  1:19  
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. 

JoDee  1:21  
We have so many former teachers that are into sourdough bread baking, right Ali? 

Ali  1:26  
Yeah like, I was just thinking like that's making me hungry now. Sourdough bread baking...

Courtney  1:32  
Yeah, I feel like I'm a little late to the party. I feel like bread baking got really big during the pandemic. And then I, I just started this year,

Ali  1:40  
I'm planning to start. We're about to physically move to a new city. So I was like, I'm just gonna wait till we move to start, but it's on my list of things to do, so... 

JoDee  1:49  
I've opted out of all baking. I do not like following  the instructions when I cook. I like to improvise. So that pretty much eliminates baking for me. 

Courtney  2:00  
Yeah, the best thing I can say about it is it's not hard. It just is time consuming. Like the steps it takes a long time for each step to happen. But like you can definitely do it.

Ali  2:09  
You have to be patient. That's it. Yeah. I hope that I can handle it. So we'll see to be determined. We'll have an update later on Teacher Shift podcast once I start my sourdough bread baking. Well, great. Well, I'm excited to learn more about the different shifts that you've made on today's episode. And the first one that really stuck out to me was that as a teacher, you made a shift from middle school to high school. And that always fascinates me. I spent most of my time in high school and thought about going to middle school but never really never really had the opportunity or the will to leave high school. So tell me a little bit about that first transition you made just from grade levels?

Courtney  2:50  
Yeah, well, to be clear, I don't I didn't really want to be a middle school teacher either. You know, I wanted to teach high school. I started teaching, not sure if you go go there familiar, but I did a program called Teach for America, in Chicago. And I remember when I signed up, I was like, I want to be a high school chemistry teacher. And then it was like, I didn't have the right credits to align with becoming a high school, either math or chemistry teacher. So yeah, they put me in middle school science. And so I think the transition for me was less like I wanted to do middle school and then I decided I wanted to do high school. I think I always knew high school was a better fit for me. Kind of to your comment earlier, I think it takes a special person to to teach middle school. There's just a lot going on at that age developmentally. The kids are a little too old to fully buy into like the incentive systems that you do at like elementary school level, but they're like, not quite high school level yet. So after my, my two year commitment with Teach For America was up, I decided to make the jump to high school, which was the right fit for me. I think, you know, I have like a pretty dry sense of humor. So I think the older I go, and that's what I kind of did in my teaching trajectory. I went from seventh to ninth and then to 11. I just feel like the older kids are a better fit for kind of my personality.

JoDee  4:13  
That's good that you recognize that. A lot of times when teachers are transitioning from, you know, university, or some sort of certification system into a school they have this idea of what might be the right fit. You instinctually knew like this one's probably not going to be the right fit. But sometimes we get placed in a subject area or a gray band that we're like this isn't exactly right for me and I need to make a transition or a shift into something different. Maybe that's a different school, a different grade level, different subject area. And that's really great that you recognize that and when you went to high school did you were you still with Teach For America when you made that shift? 

Courtney  4:54  
Teach For America itself, like you're always going to be an alumni after, but the commitments only two years. So you kind of go from being a part of the core to being in their alumni program, essentially, which goes on for life. So no, I was outside of my commitment there. And then I started teaching at another charter school in, in Chicago. I will say that, I do see the benefits of like starting at a younger grade level, because I feel like there's certain skills that you build with, like having to have your routines really set for the younger kids. And that translates well, even to older kids, you know, or even adults, honestly. Like, I've noticed a lot of the same principles apply as you grow in age. ,

JoDee  5:43  
Yeah, I noticed there was one point in my career where I was working with all grades as this ESL director of sorts. And I realized quickly that middle school and high school, my personality just wasn't the right fit for the way that I like to interact. And I do have a certain sense of humor, and it just wasn't for those upper grade bands. So that was kind of your first shift. And then you kind of made a decision to leave the teaching profession. And you know, we were looking at kind of the pre questionnaire and learning more about you and learn that finances were one of the reasons that you made a shift. And that's actually a topic that people are afraid to talk about. But we know from our streaming numbers, that some of our financial episodes are the most streamed. And it's kind of this taboo topic that people don't want to talk about why they need to leave or why they want to leave. And so we were just curious, how did you come to that decision, and why were finances one of those reasons to transition?

Courtney   6:46  
I think, for me the decision to leave. I mean, it took years. Like I feel like two years into teaching high school, I was like, Maybe this isn't the right fit. But as I'm sure is the case, with all teachers, there's a lot of guilt associated with deciding to leave. And especially, you know, my program had this like four year advisory program. So I had a group of girls that I supported from freshman to senior year. So finances was one of them. But also there was just this feeling of like, this is not the right fit for me. Like the day to day of what I'm doing. I liked a lot of aspects of teaching. But the day to day is not fitting with like what I feel like I want to be doing. But yeah, I definitely think that finances were a factor. And it became more than factor as my life changed. You know, when I was like young in my 20s teacher salary worked for me. And honestly, I really had a great time, in terms of like, I had long breaks. I took, you know, a trip or two to Europe or South America. Like I had that time that was kind of like, I could use to travel. But, you know, when it came time to, like I was engaged was going to get married. It just was like, we're gonna have kids. I don't see this salary being sustainable for like the life that I want to have. And I had had that discussion with my principal, even, you know, I was lucky, I had a very supportive administration, in my when I was teaching high school. And I was pretty clear about like, kind of the future. And I remember telling her, I was like, I don't see what I'm making currently as something that's going to be able to sustain what I want to do and the life I want to have. And at that time, our school had moved to like a transparent pay scale model. So it was pretty clear what I would be making.

Ali  8:45  
And what did the principal say in response? I'm just really curious. How did they talk to you about that? Because that's amazing that you had that relationship with them that you could be so transparent and so open. ,

Courtney   8:58  
Yeah, I mean, I don't really like remember exactly how she responded. But I think ultimately, she was she understood and was supportive of it. But at the same time, this kind of goes back to like, I tried to I tried to leave multiple times where it's like, you know, the conversation somehow weaves back to like, but think of the impact you're making, and it's like, Oh, you're right, like I am making an impact.

Ali  9:19  
It's, it's hard, because like you're making the impact, but at the same time, you had a life that you wanted to lead. I think I was curious if the administrator had said, like, Oh, well, you could go into administration and make more money. Because to be honest with you, when I was kind of in a similar boat, and I was like, I don't know if this salary, in my early career, will work forever. I was like, Oh, I could always go into administration. But it's how you do make more money. But it has a lot more responsibility, and it's very different than being in the classroom. 

Courtney   9:47  
And for some reason I knew I knew admin, like administration just wasn't the route that I was going to take. I don't know why I knew that. I don't know, I guess just looking around at kind of what the day to day of being a vice principal or Principal didn't didn't really appeal to me. But yeah, I think, I don't know, it's no secret. It's something that bothers me. I believe that, like, if they had the ability, our school would have paid higher salaries. Right? And I just think it's a systemic problem in the United States that it's not a valued profession in terms of like, salary. And you know, there's a lot of research that goes to show in other countries, this is something it's like an a very esteemed profession. You're up there with, like lawyers and doctors. So I feel like until that is addressed on a systemic level, it's just going to be this way. And I mean, I had experiences, I wouldn't be like grading papers and the airport. And people would be like, Oh, you're a teacher. That's so great. I'm so glad that you do that. I was like, I'm not. I'm not doing community service, you know, like, this is, this is a job. But I feel like that's sometimes how people look at it. Because everyone knows, like, you know, you are making a major sacrifice. I feel like in terms of like salary.

Ali  11:00  
So you identified that you weren't sure that this would be where you, you would land forever. This wasn't where your whole career would last in the classroom. And then there were the financial concerns that the salary wouldn't increase at a level that would be comfortable for you and your family. So what did you do next, in terms of looking for a career outside of the classroom? 

Courtney  11:23  
Yeah, there was like, I would say the longest phase was like the decision phase, like, am I going to leave? And I think, in my third year, maybe even second year, I started to make those initial efforts of like, if I saw a job, I would, you know, apply to it. I had a couple of first round interviews that did not go well. I was lucky that, you know, I did have the Teach For America organization that I was a part of had some alumni support in terms of like, they would do resume reviews. They would have alumni kind of meet and greet. So I tried to do some of that. They also had a partner organization, Leadership for Educational Equity, and I participated in some of their workshops and career coaching. So I really tried to not go it alone, if that makes sense. Like, you know, I knew that it was going to be a difficult transition. And I knew that there were certain things that would make you more successful and you know, having feedback on my resume and cover letters and catering them to job descriptions, like, I actually feel like I took a ton away from those that year or so that I was applying to jobs in terms of like how to do that skill. I mean, I applied for a lot of jobs. So that's the other thing, I think it's no secret to, to people out there that like, it just might take a while. You might have to go through quite a few jobs, and hearing nothing back, right? Like putting resumes out there and just getting no response. So my goal, I was like, determined to get into like Ed Tech, just because to me that that's what made the most sense in terms of like combining my education background and moving into the software space, which is something that I for some reason thought I wanted to do. It's kind of funny, because I made all those efforts. But ultimately, those are not what landed me my next job. But I would still tell people to kind of take those steps. I think if I could go back, I would really try to double down on like the networking component. Because even since making the transition, that's what I hear all the time is just like, that's how you're gonna end up lining up your next role.

JoDee  13:39  
These are really important points that you are really making. First of all, just the fact that you're expressing you have to apply for a lot of jobs. This is very true. And what we're also learning is that it takes a long time sometimes to even hear back from a job. Sometimes there's multiple interviews. Sometimes you don't hear back at all. And so instead of waiting to hear back on a job that you apply for, people need to still continue to apply during that waiting period. Even if you're super helpful. Even if you've networked and someone has hooked you up with an interview, you still have to keep applying. And then the fact that you're bringing up networking. You know, teachers have their network within their building, within their school district. But if you're looking to go outside of that, you really have to lean into people outside of the building that can help you. And maybe someone, one of your peers, know someone that can help you but sometimes teachers are fearful to speak to their immediate peers about a transition because they don't want it to impact their relationships with future opportunities within the building and whatnot. On the topic of networking, and you said you you know you would do do some things differently, you had mentioned that your transition wasn't immediately to Skilljar. So can you talk a little bit about kind of the in between and what helped you land the job at Skilljar? And also just tell us a little bit about your role?

Courtney  15:18  
Actually, it's funny, I'm a pretty risk averse person. So this year, when I left, I left the classroom in 2019. And I think the thing that's challenging for most challenging for myself, and it's challenging for teachers that I have talked to, since transitioning is, you know, when you're leaving the classroom, our principal, or vice principal, you know, someone would have the conversation with us in January about whether we were staying for the next year. So I'm getting advice from my personal circle, like, oh, my gosh, you would never give notice for a job until you have another one. And I'm like, well, but I can't. That's too early to start applying for and lining up another job. Because, you know, most places outside of teaching aren't going to be like, yes, let's hire you in February and you can start in August. Like that's, you know, they need someone to start immediately. So I felt like that was another challenge. And I chose to tell them. And honestly, I think a big factor in me deciding to do that was the fact that my fiancee, at the time, now husband and I were going to be moving to California. I honestly think that if I didn't have that, like that rug pulled out from underneath me, I don't know if I would have made the same decision. But I knew we were moving from Chicago to California. So I knew I couldn't stay at that school. So that's what kind of like really lit a fire for me. Right? So anyways, I had been going through steps from January to... you know, I mean, I had talked about I've done little things over over the period of years that I decided I was going to leave, but then I was really like, okay, from January to the summer, like let me really try to line something up. Getting, you know, non responses, rejections back. I did have a couple of opportunities where at least made it into the interview cycle, but didn't get them. And going back to like the networking piece. I really kind of felt like this was before remote was as common, right? It was like before the pandemic and I was leaving. I had quite a few connections in Chicago, but I was leaving. So I couldn't really leverage them as much. You know?

Ali  17:28  
That's what I was thinking about, too. I'm like, you're not only are you trying to make a career shift, but you're making a career shift into a new area. 

Courtney  17:36  
Yeah, I remember driving home, a coworker was driving me home one day, and he was like, so you're going to quit your job, get married, move across the country and try to find a new job like? And I was like, Oh my God, would you put it like that? That sounds awful. Like, why am I doing that? You know, I mean, we're just we're lucky it worked out. But essentially, what ended up happening was my husband also, we taught together the high school. And he was also looking for another job outside of the classroom. And so we were both kind of going through this together. He lined up a roll out of software company local in Sacramento here. And then, you know, I think a month later, the CEO was like, they must have been talking and he was like, Oh, well, what's your fiance doing? And he was like, well, she's like, looking for a job. And he was like, well, I need someone with education experience to create this online training program. Like I need someone now. And I was like, ugh. Like, when he told me it was kind of like, that wasn't my path. Like, I wanted to find a cool ed tech job. I've never heard of this company in Sacramento. And also, I had already worked with my husband for four years. And we were kind of like ready to not work together. And this was a small company, you know, 15 people. And I was like, okay, you know what, I don't have a job right now. And this will at least provide me the peace of mind to know that like, I can kind of get my feet wet in a new industry, pick up some experience and skills. And I think, for me, it really worked out even though... and I think that's one of my biggest advice when I tell people is like your next job doesn't have to be your dream job. You just have to make the first step. And for me, that ended up being the right move. Because, you know, I have friends that they are very particular about what they want to do. They have the plan. They have the Google Sheet. They've got all of the non negotiables. My non negotiable was I'm trying to find a job where I won't make less money and I'm not teaching, right? So like I was pretty open. So I would say for people like me, where you could be interested in a lot of things, like don't limit yourself to one next move. Because, for me, it ended up working out to kind of take this job at a company, I had never heard of, doing something I never thought about doing quite frankly. 

JoDee  20:09  
Yeah, you're not the first person to tell us that where they are now isn't where they started when they made their first transition. And we think we have to be open to the idea that sometimes there is that little period of time where we're still figuring out what we want, but we know what we don't want. And what we don't want is to go back to the career that we feel maybe hasn't fulfilled us, that is burning us out, or just isn't the right type of trajectory we would like for our professional self, our financial self, whatever that might be. And we have to be open to remembering what we don't want. And fill that kind of time to explore ourselves, explore the industries, continue to network to then land a job that can perhaps lead us to our next career goal.

Courtney  21:04  
The other piece of advice, at least, you know, everyone's gonna go in different industries. So this might not apply. But if if people are going into Tech, I feel like a huge benefit for me, was the small company component. I was able to wear a lot of hats at this company. Like I immediately was able to dive into kind of curriculum development, screen recording videos, basically building all of the content for our online training. I was running our in person trainings.

JoDee  21:33  
Teacher techie skills, I love it. 

Courtney  21:35  
Yeah, it was like an immediate application. I was like, Oh, you want me to build an online curriculum for training. I can do that. You know, like, I immediately could do the curriculum mapping piece. And like, the training component, it was no different right than teaching. It was just, I mean, the audience was a little bit different. I was training on a software like, wastewater treatment plant, so they weren't ninth graders. But essentially, teaching is teaching, you know, to some respect. So it really worked out for me. I was able to build a lot of skills, and then be able to speak to things. So you're asking about, like, how did I transition a Skilljar. So I found out about Skilljar, because I was building out our LMS. So learning management system. When I was doing that, I was looking for software's that I could build our training program on and I came across Skilljar. So I probably came across Skilljar within my first three months of working at NextGen, my first job after teaching. And I then got on their marketing list and was like, sent to their webinars and like sent their conference information. And so I went to all those things. I would like, go to their webinars and try to learn about customer education. And then I would, I went to their events. The first one was virtual, because it was 2020. The next one was local, it was able to drive like an hour and a half and go to it, right? And then basically, after I went to the second conference, I found out that they became they always seemed like a cool company to me. And I found out that like because of the pandemic, they became fully remote because they were based in Seattle. So I think it didn't even crossed my mind in the beginning, like, oh, I should apply to work there. I'm like, oh, but I'm not going to move to Seattle right now. When I found out that they were fully remote with no chance of returning to the office, I basically got home from the conference and like immediately applied to the open role. And, you know, because of my experience in my first role, I was able to speak to more of the customer success tech terminology that quite frankly, coming out of the classroom, I would have not known. It would have been like work just to learn how to speak that language. And now it was coming naturally. 

Ali  23:51  
And I think that's what's so hard to understand, unless you've actually been through that before is that, you know, we have a lot of acronyms and education. We have education language that we use, but in other fields, you know, what we may call things in education are called completely different things. And so your first you know, transition, your first shift into the outside world, really lets you learn a lot of that. It lets you know language, it lets you become familiar with the way that things work outside of a school district or outside of the school. Because to me again, like that was a big transition when I when I had my first job that wasn't a teaching job. You know, used to like in education, you have very like very specific roles and responsibilities and due dates. And sometimes you don't have those in your other jobs. It might be up to you to create your own timeline. It might be up to you to be accountable to your boss and to turn things in at a certain time. So I think you've learned so many skills from your first shift and then you're even better prepared. At least I was. It sounds like you were your next shift. And I really love hearing about out just how your story, you know, unfolded, I actually had a super similar thing where we got my husband and I got married, and we moved to San Diego. And it was because of his job in the Navy. And it was funny, I guess it wasn't as crazy because he was, you know, he was in the military, so people knew we were going to have to move. But I was looking for a teaching job, because I was still gonna say in teaching, and it took them so long to get my credential, that by the time I got it, it was actually October. So I'd already figured out something else to do in the interim just because of that. So, you know, these hard things happen, where were making a physical move. We're choosing to leave a profession that we've enjoyed that we've served our community, but you need to take that step. And that's what you did. You took that next step. You prepared yourself. I loved hearing how you took advantage of all the resources that you had from Teach For America, from their partner organization. 

JoDee  25:53  
And I liked that you were candid about being risk averse, because I think that's a common trait among teachers. Because, well, it's true, like, we know that we can kind of forecast our salary. We can forecast roles within a school system. And that does make it a pretty risk averse profession. And so that's where a lot of people feel the fear of taking that risk. And I think that that's a good point to make that it's okay to be afraid. It's okay to you know, acknowledge that you might be a bit risk averse, but it's worth it.

Courtney 26:32  
I think I knew that I was like, Okay, this was, like I said, before I was I got married in 2019, right after I left the classroom. So I was kind of at the end of my like, I can still take risks time period, right? Like, didn't have kids. And I mean, that's not to say that you can't take risks when you have kids. I just feel like, you feel the weight of risky decisions a lot more, because you now have more people that you are responsible for supporting. So looking at it now, I think it would be even harder to have decided to leave with like a mortgage and two kids, and just all the things weighing on you. And having the idea of potentially going X number of months, it would be scary. 

JoDee  27:14  
So I want to be clear with our audience, when I'm talking about risk. It was purely money. For me, at least when I was talking about a transition for my family. And when my husband and I sat down, and we looked at the risk, we were looking at our finances. And we were saying, Okay, we have until about the end of November, to really make sure that you have some kind of job. So we don't start going negative. And so that was really when I talked about risk, it wasn't like the risk of my identity as a teacher or, you know, location. It was money. 

Ali  27:52  
Well, I think that's what we're all talking about here. So that's the vibe that I got. That we were all talking about kind of this financial risk of having,  having these financial responsibilities. And so there's different types of risks, right? And definitely the financial one we know, from our streams, you know, from our listeners, from our guests, that that is a huge concern. And that should be something you really examine very closely before you make any sort of a shift. But also think about the other types of, you know, risks or things you might be missing out on. And I look at my life now, I left the classroom full time in 2018. So now we're six years later, and I would have missed so many things in my kid's life, both of my children's lives, if I had still been in the classroom. So that's a risk to. And I think we just have to balance all of these things. But ultimately, action is what helps. Taking action. Whether that is networking, whether that is learning about other career fields, whether that's revamping your resume, redoing your LinkedIn, listening to episodes of people who have done it before and just taking action is is a really big thing. And I loved hearing your story. You were courageous. You did take action. You made shifts in your career. And now you landed really where you sounds like where you want it to be, and you're happy with your career decision.

Courtney  29:16  
Yeah, and I mean, what I'm doing now is totally different than what I was doing at my last job. You know, I'm there's pieces that overlap. But I think that's one thing that has become... like I feel more comfortable making these shifts. It doesn't scare me as much, right? Because I'm like, I know, I can be a quick learner. And I can pick things up. And actually, I think for anyone who's looking, I know I haven't talked a ton about it. But for anyone who who's a teacher who is thinking about going into tech, I do think that the customer success management role is a great fit for transitioning from teaching. There's a ton of overlap in terms of like what I'm doing on my day to day. Just like the level of organization that teaching prepared me with like, I use that in my day to day life now. And I mean, essentially, I'm helping my customers, right? I'm consulting on how they can meet their goals using our software. When I was teaching, I was helping my students try to reach their academic goals, right? So there's a ton of parallels, relationship building, being able to like get along with a lot of different personalities and know what motivates people, what makes them tick. All of that is stuff that I'm using in my day to day job. So I didn't know what a CSM was when I was leaving the classroom. But now I can see like, Oh, this is actually a really, really good role for you know, someone who's coming out of teaching.

JoDee  30:40  
When those roles are posted into job boards, is it spelled out? Or is it CSM? Like, should they look for both of those,  the acronym and the full. I'm just thinking about how we curate our jobs. And we actually have some former guests that kind of are in similar roles. So it seems like a really good fit for a teacher that is willing to learn that new type of job. But how would someone search for a role like that? 

Courtney 31:06  
I think on the job, it's been a while since I've like kind of looked at how its presented on job applications. I think I've always seen like customer success manager. Maybe you'll see client success manager, you know, some variation.

Ali  31:20  
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. And I think when this episode rolls out, I will be mindful to include a lot of job postings on our apply Thursday for these types of roles for our listeners who are interested. So I think this was just a perfect way to wrap up today's episode. Keep your eye out for those types of job postings. That would be great for a transitioning teacher. Thanks so much for being on the show today, Courtney.

Courtney  31:43  
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me here. enjoyed our talk.

Ali  31:46  
If you'd like to connect with Courtney, you can find her on LinkedIn under Courtney Fearing and Instagram at Court_MCK. We'll link them in the show notes.

Are you interested in suggesting a topic for Teacher Shift? Being a guest or recommending a guest? Please see the episodes page on our website to make a submission. And if you'd like to write for us, see our blog page. If you liked Teacher Shift, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music. Today's episode was written and recorded by me, Ali Simon and my co host, JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teachers Shift. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original Music: Emoji by Tubebackr.