Teacher Shift

Here’s an Easy Way to Apply for Jobs With Drew McManus

• Ali Simon & JoDee Scissors • Episode 81

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Today, Ali and JoDee are joined by Drew McManus, CEO of Upstage and the creator of Arts Admin Jobs, an online job board. Together, they’ll discuss what lead Drew to creating Arts Admin Jobs, what sets it apart from other jobs boards, and his best resume tips for job seekers. 


Connect with Drew:
Arts Admin Jobs Website: https://artsadminjobs.com/
Upstage Website: https://upstagecrm.io/
Venture Industries Online Website: https://ventureindustriesonline.com/



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Connect with Ali and JoDee:
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JoDee’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodeescissors/

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Episode Transcriptions
https://www.teachershiftpodcast.com/blog

Ali  0:06  
Teachers are natural innovators, entertainers and problem solvers. They dream of growing old into the profession, teaching their kids kids. But sometimes career goals shift, and that makes opportunities outside of the classroom seem intangible questioning who am I if I'm not a teacher? I'm your host, Ali Simon.

And I'm your co host, JoDee Scissors.

And this is Teacher Shift.

JoDee  0:43  
Searching and applying for a job can be daunting. And search board memberships can be expensive. Luckily, there are thoughtful innovators out there that want to make it easier on you. Today's guest is the essence of someone that thinks outside the box when it comes to applying for jobs in the arts. 

Ali  1:03  
Drew McManus may be Upstage's CEO, but don't let that title fool you into thinking he's just a tech geek. His expertise spans across multiple sectors and is regularly quoted as an industry expert in media outlets, including New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, and The Chronicle of Philanthropy, along with more than 100 additional newspapers, trade journals and magazine outlets. Broadcast appearances include NPR's All Things Considered, NPR's Weekend Edition, and NPR's Morning Edition. Welcome to the show today, Drew.

Drew  1:39  
Thanks for having me.

JoDee  1:40  
Well, I think Drew is going to have to update his bio, because now he's been on Teacher Shift. And I think that would just blow everybody away, right up there with NPR.

Drew  1:51  
Absolutely.

JoDee  1:53  
Thanks for being on the show today. I wanted to give our listeners a little bit of background of how we got here today and how we connected. So as our listeners know, Ali and I are very active on LinkedIn. We are always trying to support former teachers, teacher shifting, looking for advice, and also in our, in our careers that we have now, which is I work in arts education and Ali is a project manager. And so I just noticed one day on LinkedIn that one of my colleagues at the Kennedy Center had liked the arts admin job post, and I thought, I wonder what that's all about. And so other than the fact that it was an intriguing name, it's a beautiful logo, very attractive. And so I clicked on it. And I thought, wow, this is really nice. The interface is beautiful. These jobs are really interesting. And it almost felt like this close knit thing that only people in the arts might know about. And so I thought, we have a lot of teachers who really crave creativity. And sometimes when we are teaching very scripted curriculum, or we have certain mandates on us, that we find that the classroom isn't necessarily where we want to be. But we want to be in an educational space. And sometimes the arts are where we land, which is my story. I transitioned from the classroom. And my first job out of the classroom was with the Kennedy Center Performing Arts Center. And that's why I'm so well connected in the arts now. And we wanted to touch base with you to be able to learn a little bit more about this platform that you created for job seekers, that is specifically arts admin.

Drew  3:57  
Absolutely. And one of the things I love to say about this field, the arts and culture business is it does make Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon look like child's play. You're at the Kennedy Center, which I knew, but it was only in the back of my head until you mentioned it here. My brother in law is the principal trombone of the National Symphony. So you guys are actually in the same building. Yeah.

JoDee  4:18  
Yes. Yes. I'm sure we've crossed paths. We definitely eat in the same canteen.

More than a few times, I'm sure. But yeah, that's those stories happen all the time in this field. But thank you for having me. I'm really, really glad to be here. And I'm glad you came across the site. But you're absolutely right. This is not like other jobs boards, where even if they're arts and culture focused, they usually have a lot of filler from the big box job stores. You know, they come from Indeed or from some other places and they'll have maybe, at best 20% of the listings will come from the organizations. On the other side of that are other arts and culture jobs boards that are going to be sector specific, like there are jobs boards by the League of American Orchestras, which will only have Symphony Orchestra job listings and Opera America, which only has opera listings and so on, so forth. But those are also very difficult for job seekers to access. This really all started back in 2001. And I was at a conference and sitting around with some colleagues after the day and having drinks, and we got approached by someone who was just, just out of school as an arts admin graduate in their master's degree, and they were looking for gainful employment. But they were discovering the process was a lot more challenging than they thought it would be. Arts administrators have always had a little bit of a dearth of a candidate pool, but it's still difficult for job seekers to find those positions. They limited that the harsh reality is that people in his position were usually charged to have access to those job listings, especially from the service organizations. And if you didn't have the money to pay for it, because you didn't have a job and you couldn't find a job. And you see the nasty circle starts to feed upon itself. And in some cases, those jobs boards want to pay to access the listings, you have to pay another fee to actually access the application information, which to me was just, that's no. I'm a more egalitarian like that. I am a hardcore capitalist, but I at least that case, very egalitarian. I knew that the arts and culture, job sector wasn't really empathetic to those kinds of concerns from this individual. But at that time, I was in a position where I was determined I was able to actually do something about it. And the fortunate part was, I was armed with a really big hosting account. And I had my tech business up and running at that point in time and an awful lot of web development and design experience. So I decided to take all of that and do something about this. I created the vision of building a jobs board for the arts and culture sector that would be mobile first, fast, reliable, intuitive, and I wanted it to be free for both employers and job seekers. It wasn't something that was designed to make a buck off. And since that point in time, it has grown exponentially. Still, to this day, none of the listings are padded with jobs from Indeed or the other big box job stores. And each and every listing is directly by the employer. And we don't solicit or do any advertising whatsoever. It's been all word of mouth growth. In 2015, to kind of hit our next big growth benchmark and that we started to allow job seekers to create and upload resumes that were in a paywall secure account. So employers can pay for a certain number of days, either 60 days access or a year round access, to be able to, to actually tap into candidates that have experience in the art industry or like I think what your listener base is, folks that are looking to take their current skill sets and pivot into the industry. And I've been really pleased with the interest and with the diversity of people who have been submitting applications. It's a wide spectrum from different sectors and across many different experience levels. Pass that, I think this authenticity has really helped the jobs board grow among the arts and culture sector. You know, at this point at LinkedIn, we have more than 13,000 followers for the page. And our new follower rate for the last six years has exceeded any other North American arts jobs board on LinkedIn.

Congratulations.

Drew  8:41  
For something that started off as a project, I am thrilled with how it's turned out. 

JoDee  8:45  
Yeah, well, it's interesting to hear these things. Because when Ali and I were at South By Edu in Austin, this spring, we heard this interesting statistic about how a lot of people will start an application, but never finish it. And they never get the job because they never actually finish the application process. So when it comes to a job seeker coming to your site, what makes it an easy process for them to be able to actually put it in, get submitted and actually be considered for a position? Because some websites do have these really rigorous application processes that are page after page, essay after essay. You have to upload things, transcripts, whatever it might be. What is it in your design that you wanted to make it so accessible that it's an enjoyable experience for the actual applicant? 

Drew  9:46  
Oh, as enjoyable as applying for a job can be. Yeah. Well, there's two different I think benchmarks that we use there. First is when we create the job listing forms for the employer, there are a few really critical required elements. They have to list either an email address or a URL, where the job seeker can actually go to apply. And we do check those. So as they come in, if it's just a link to another page that's just like a paywall or something else, it's just going to be a hurdle, then we write the employer and say, Look, we can publish this until this has been changed. And sometimes they do. I'll give them that. But not always. But for everybody who does this guarantees that every single candidate who's looking for a job at the site has access to being able to actually submit an application. Now the application process itself is going to be determined entirely by the employer. Some are very straightforward, and they list right in the posting, here's what we need, just send it to us an email and others that are usually much larger budget organizations will have a much more structured format to it. We don't require, but the vast majority of all of our employers, include the salary range, or if it's an hourly rate job, what the hourly rate is. That also helps job seekers tremendously, because they can filter their job listings by category. So if, since this covered all arts and culture sector. If they want to look for a job in the theatre community, or in museums, or symphony orchestras or operas, they can narrow it down that way. They can narrow it down by department. So if they want to work in marketing, or development, or education, or one of the other fields. And they can curate that list to what they're looking for. And they can also set job alerts, use those same taxonomy, the same criteria, and check off what they want. And as any new job comes in that meets that criteria, then the system just automatically sends them off an email message. And they can engage that way.

Ali  11:50  
Yeah, that's amazing. I've actually been starting to look at, you know, job boards. And there's so many places, right, you can go directly to the organization. But I find it a lot easier as someone who... I'm in charge of our Apply Thursday job posts, so I'm always seeking opportunities for educators transitioning and I've used your job word often to pull jobs like probably, I'd say, at least once a month or twice a month, there's listings from there. And I really do love the transparency in the salary. Having salaries posted, even if it's a broad range, it really does give applicants an idea of what the position, you know, what type of a position is. Sometimes the title can be misleading. And you're like, how much like, you know, is this more of an entry level job. Sometimes they say it's entry level, but the pay might not be entry level. And it can just give you a better idea of whether you're going to spend your time applying to that role, and also allows us as people who are curating jobs for educators to know, is this a field that hopefully teacher could make similar salary or higher salary, if they're going to make a transition. But I, I've been on the website before, and I think you really did a good job of describing. So if someone goes to Arts Admin Jobs, and they are looking for roles, you know, you described it perfectly that they can either, there'll be instructions on how they can apply for it. And if they'll be directed to the website of where the application will be housed. It might be directly through the organization or a third party, or it would say, like email, so and so with your resume and cover letter. And so it's pretty straightforward. I am not as techie as JoDee. And I say that it's very easy to use, it's a really nice interface. I've had no issues with accessing it. And so I think for our educators who may be in the arts, or they're looking to go into the arts, this is a fabulous resource for you to be able to, to look for job postings. And also we'll continue to use it.

JoDee  13:46  
And the feature, the feature of like, uploading your own resume up there, and people are looking at you. Because it's kind of like... most job search is the opposite. You're looking at them. But the chance for someone to look at you is something we haven't actually ever touched on, in the two years that we've been doing this, because we're thinking a little bit more traditional type of application. But I love that. And I actually haven't heard of any other platform doing that.

Drew  14:15  
That's right. Yes, we are the only one to do it. This is one of the elements that we unfortunately can't automate, but in a good way. The vast majority of the site is automated and it makes the job of maintaining everything and keeping the costs under control. But when the resumes come in, they have to be reviewed by a human being. And we do check to make sure that it is a legitimate resume. You know, there are plenty of spam ones that come in. And it increases that value add for the employers and they know if they're going to be spending money to be able to access these to begin with they are people and potential candidates that they really want to find. The other inspiration behind that feature was I got very...and frustrated is not really the right word. But I would talk to executives at middle and smaller budget orchestras. And there's always this sense of, Well, no one's going to be interested in working here. We're out in the middle of somewhere, and we aren't a major city. And that's not the case. That's not true at all. But if you project that in your job listings, and if you don't think you're going to be able to go out and actually recruit someone for your positions, that resume database is a huge asset. You're going to find a lot of people who are going to list where they're willing to, to relocate, which is one of the fields that when someone submits a resume, it's not just uploading your file and that's it. There's a list of questionnaire that they have to go through to indicate what they do want and don't want, and are and, aren't willing to do. And so I want to, I want to help the field as a whole evolve past these very caste system driven mindsets that have existed longer than any of us have been around.

JoDee  16:01  
Ali, you have a connection to that. I'm just, you can elaborate on it. But you just bought a house somewhere different. So you kind of have this address dilemma, and what you put on your resume, right? 

Ali  16:16  
Yeah, and I mean, if you're seeking an opportunity in the area you're about to live, it's more advantageous to have an address or, you know, say that you're living in that area, because sometimes employers don't pay relocation. Or, I mean, they probably shouldn't, but they're more likely to have preference for someone who's already local, because they could get there sooner. So yeah, it definitely sounds like what you're building in... I love the platform for applicants is free. And I agree with what you have to do to be able to upload the resumes and review them, you know, the employers pay a fee. But that seems also extremely reasonable to me. It, it's really frustrating, I think. I've been a part of different professional organizations. And sometimes they charge a lot of money to lists jobs, on their websites. And it's really a barrier. I think, for smaller institutions, when you're running like a nonprofit, or like a school, that's maybe an independent school, it just it can be a lot. And I love that teachers love things that are free also. So it's really nice that we can share that with our community, that that's free. I'm curious. So I know, in the beginning, you kind of touched on a little bit, this was a, like a passion project for you. But what is your connection to the arts? How did you decide to really spend your time building this out, because we usually do that for a reason.

Drew  17:34  
And it is I mean, my history goes back to the 1990s. And I was at a point my career not long after school where my degree was in tuba performance. But I think I'm fortunate enough that I realized early enough that I was not going to get a job as a tuba player, which was already extremely difficult. But had the experience of working in a wide variety of arts administration positions. And at that point in time, you remember, this is early enough. This is the early 90s, that arts consultants were still relatively new. I mean, back at that time, I could count on one hand the number of consultants that specialized in the orchestra business, which is where I started my consultancy. I was also in the right place at the right time. And that back in the early 90s, culture blogs were also very new. And I was one of the very first culture bloggers. And I for up until last year actually published adaptistration.com, which is a blog about orchestra management. That allowed me to be able to have a voice that expanded to a much broader market than I ever would have if I went into a traditional route, whether that was working for a symphony orchestra or even trying to be a consultant through traditional means. That allowed me to build a media reputation that got me to where I am today and got the exposure that I needed. That combined with success in my earlier consulting projects, moved me in a direction that was slowly gravitating toward the tech field. More and more of my consulting work was moving in that direction. It was emerging. You know, the internet, selling tickets online was still a new idea back in the 90s, was something that more groups were moving into. And so by that point in time, late 90s, early aughts, I formed a web development company called Venture Industries Online, which still exist as its own division inside Upstage Technologies, which is now not just web design, but also it's a full fledged ticketing CRM platform. And so that's kind of where I am today with all of that. But this jobs board dovetailed into all of that work, combined with the understanding of what the field really is for both employers and job seekers to create what I think wouldn't have been something that someone without that experience and knowledge would have been able to generate on their own.

JoDee  19:58  
I'm fully seeing that connection now. I just pulled up Upstage's website. And yes, definitely solid connection there. I can't think of a more important or reliable source you might need for tickets, ticketing in the performing arts industry, or even really any industry that has that component. But yes, what an important aspect that you want to have working efficiently when you need to seel something. 

Drew  20:30  
Absolutely, and is attached to the Arts Jobs board, philosophy. It is that efficiency and connectivity to make it as easy as possible and to remove barriers that keep people from either posting a listing, posting an inadequate listing, or not applying for the job. We can translate all of that into the challenges that arts organizations have, which is removing barriers, to purchasing tickets, to attendance, to feeling good after you're done with your very first event, and who wants to return. There's a lot of, I hate this word, but I'm going to use it synergy between those two ideas. And I'm a big believer in that organizations have to internalize these sorts of ideas and implement them with everything that they do. Just with one specific, institutional mission driven goal. And if this can help bring that holistic approach together, then it's kind of a win win.

JoDee  21:28  
Definitely. Right now is the season for which all of Ali and I's former colleagues, or teachers that we once knew, or people on our network, start reaching out to us and saying, I'm looking for my next thing, or I'm looking for my first shift. And so when I was on your website, just earlier this week, I was thinking, I've had a couple of people in the past, I don't know three weeks, say I'm looking for something in events. And I can't think of an industry that boasts more events than the arts. And so we're definitely going to be keeping an eye out for all of those people that are reaching out to us saying, I'm looking for my next thing. And we're so glad that we have this resource to be able to go to to say, Hey, I think you're the right fit for this. Or hey, did you say you wanted hybrid or you're willing to relocate? Now that we know that you have all of those things, and we can help these people and meet their needs as well, we really do appreciate the work that you did, to be able to put this together to make the job application experience as pleasant as it can be when you are looking for a job.

Drew  22:43  
Thank you. Thank you very much. It's great to get this kind of feedback. And we don't do a lot of formal structured user survey feedback, just because we don't have the time to do that. So anything that we, that I follow on LinkedIn, the comments that come in, and the reactions that come in, and even this kind of feedback is always extremely useful. And I'm always grateful to hear it.

JoDee  23:08  
I'm always happy to be a UX experience tester. Hit me up on LinkedIn. I'm always happy to do that.

Drew  23:18  
One, I will definitely hold you to that. 

Ali  23:21  
And I want to let our listeners know that a really great way that they could use this resource the Arts Admin Jobs website is to take a look at the jobs that you're interested in, see what's in the job description, tailor your resume using those keywords that are in the job postings, and you can use the upload resume feature. And so employers will be able to see your resume, but it's hard for teachers when they're looking to transition out. Maybe they do want to go into events, maybe they're interested in just really a change outside of the classroom, and they want something new. And I think that that arts admin field can offer them that opportunity. They have a lot of great skills and communication skills just quick on their feet. So just take a look at those job listings, tailor your resume. If you try out the feature of uploading the resume, we'd love to hear from you and hear how that experience goes. And really highlight that because this is such a great resource, honestly, for us as we're putting jobs together for all of our listeners on Thursday. And yeah, I really appreciate your time Drew coming on the show today and telling us about your experience and and really the motivation behind this website.

Drew  24:26  
Sure. My, My pleasure. If we have a few more minutes, there are a couple of tips. I would love to add to that, that I think your listeners would get some, some real use out of. If you're going to submit a resume, in addition to looking for those keywords, look at the salaries that the employers are listing. And you will see patterns. Because you're going to be able to list your desired salary in the form that you submit and you want to be realistic with what you submit. You don't want to over price yourself at the same time. If you see that there's jobs are not going to pay what you want. Don't waste anyone's time. But also one thing thing I hear from employers routinely is in the resume forum you can list both hard and soft skills. Don't confuse the two. There are a lot of people submitting resumes that list soft skills in the hard skills section. And that's one of the things that we check for, we will write back to job seekers and say, Hey, you may want to update this before we publish it.

JoDee  25:27  
Those are really great tips. We really do appreciate all of those things. And that's really what everyone comes to listen for. Or they're just like, please just tell me what to do and what not to do.

Ali  25:39  
Absolutely, those were great tips. I think if you're looking to redo your resume, make sure you're separating the hard skills, the soft skills, and make sure you're also looking at industries you want to go into like maybe arts admin to see what those skills are. And you need to be able to explain how you have this qualification. So again, thanks Drew for being on the teacher Shift podcast. 

Drew  26:02  
I appreciate the invitation, it's been wonderful conversation.

Ali  26:14  
Are you interested in suggesting a topic for Teacher Shift? Being a guest or recommending a guest? Please see the episodes page on our website to make a submission. And if you'd like to write for us, see our blog page. If you liked Teacher Shift, give us a five star rating and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Apple podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music. Today's episode was written and recorded by me, Ali Simon and my co host, JoDee Scissors. Executive produced by Teacher Shift. Produced and edited by Emily Porter. Original Music: Emoji by Tubebackr.